1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

Status
Not open for further replies.
After playing Algol for a while he isn't all that in a bag of chip. He's mid at best after studying him for a while. But before 1.3 he was T.O.P no mistakes about it. I want to know some hilde counters for god sake. If people are scare of SC3, then they haven't seen Hilde yet.
 
CrazyYoshimitsu said:
After playing Algol for a while he isn't all that in a bag of chip. He's mid at best after studying him for a while. But before 1.3 he was T.O.P no mistakes about it. I want to know some hilde counters for god sake. If people are scare of SC3, then they haven't seen Hilde yet.
Click to expand...

It's easy. All you have to do is not get hit by a launcher. Easy enough right?
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
It's easy. All you have to do is not get hit by a launcher. Easy enough right?
Click to expand...

Don't forget...not to whiff, or get interrupted...and oh yeah don't tech...also don't forget not get auto gied.

Basically throw once then run away from hilde the rest of the match and try to maintain that health advantage.
 
m216xlegendx said:
I dont think cervantees is bad, but he is not top 5 . The fact is he can be side steped pretty easily.

this is just my opion so please dont bash me:) And to be all honest i dont know any very very very good cervantees.
Click to expand...
Cervantes has good tools to track step. For every single version, this has never been his problem. Getting fast chars out of his face has always been one of his small issues, but nothing major

He has the following for Sidestep and 8wayrun:

3A+B
66A
1A (Risky as hell, but it does track step)
33A
6A (Great reach also)

Again, Cervantes doesn't really have issues w/step. 3A+B and 66A have helped me keep people from stepping so far in this game
 
tiers are stupid anyway I think just a way for people to say they're character is better than they're opponent's. I've seen "low tiers" beat "S tiers" easily just because a character is "high tier" doesn't mean you'll always win.
 
Nori said:
Cervantes has good tools to track step. For every single version, this has never been his problem. Getting fast chars out of his face has always been one of his small issues, but nothing major

He has the following for Sidestep and 8wayrun:

3A+B
66A
1A (Risky as hell, but it does track step)
33A
6A (Great reach also)

Again, Cervantes doesn't really have issues w/step. 3A+B and 66A have helped me keep people from stepping so far in this game
Click to expand...

You forget 4A, the normal one, catches some steps even better than 3A+B, + Stuncombo on Hit, safe. High, but that doesnt really matter since its against step. 33A is way too slow as a real antistep. 3A+B, 4A is all you need. Some 11As for Max Range maybe...but thats it.
 
The best candidate for any opinion about Cervantes at the top...because Chang's fd actually tries to utilize him fully...without worrying about missed inputs. Cervantes players will appreciate what his trying to accomplish in these fights.

FEAR HIM!

1
2
3

1
2
3


Now if he just masters iGDR into 28B when iGDR is blocked.
 
kAb said:
you really feel liz needs to be in D tier? i disagree completely, and thats from a liz player who admits liz has shit for lows but can still do great without them, or heavy LC stance use.
Click to expand...

Well this is my reasoning for such.
Lizard is very straightfoward, and he does a number on the gauge, a balanced character but his issue is the lack of any sort of deception outside stances. Decent range, decent speed, good safety. All assets....however...
As soon as one is able to block his 1K on reaction, he has major problems forcing anything on the opponent. He's left with a containment game with 66A, trying to fight his way through to do some damage vs a good defense. In crawl stance, i'm not sure about all characters ability to stop it effectively, but i know a good few that do. His throws are ok, but his wakeup isn't strong outside crawl and his throw range isn't all that either.
Ranking lizard is tough i admit i might've been a bit harsh. His soul gauge damage is easily one of his best assets. Personally i think everyone in D tier is pretty darn solid. The disparity between C and D is quite small to me.

Only Mina sucks imo. And Yoda of course.
 
The difference between tiers is definitely smaller in this game than the others. With Liz, his throw game is also hamstrung by how pathetic his throw range actually is. It's like he's got little T-Rex arms or something because he really needs to be close. Still, I'd put him in C as a solid mid tier, maybe a bit higher.
 
i'll agree he does not have much in the way of deception, but he does have a few gimmicks and setups to acquire damage in times of need.

his post GI is superb. he has a few safe launchers, even more when spaced properly against most chararacters. his range is incredibly deceptive, he spaces better than people give him credit for.

wakeup imo isnt really a factor in most characters games, side roll destroys so many grounded options in SC4. even so, his 8B+K has a very odd disjointed hit box and can hit even if the opponent is clearly not around him.

throw game is decent, A throw to RO, B to switch position, and command throw for damage.

combine this with a few key moves that provide great hit stun and you have the tools neccessary to win.

and as always the SG damage is a nice bonus.
 
I'd argue Lizardman has decent oki off his A+G and 214B+G. 44K catch siderolls (yeah I know it's unsafe on block) and play dead after A+G is nice, bonus if you are 2P lizard (since it will then double as a decent mid if they stand up and crouch guard). command grab puts them at a good distance to go straight into crawl stuff if desired
 
@ King Ace

iGDR 28B is not going to safe you from heavy punishment, since it has 400 Frames of Recovery. The best that you can achieve is a 28B hit when they try to Throw you, but its a small window.

Ive messed around alot with iTP the last days and i think i was totally wrong about this Move. Its fucking awesome. Low Risk, huge Reward. i didnt do it cause i had Problems with the 360 Analog Stick, but now i can do it very consistent, really nice from open Mid Range Sitautions, since a whiffed 2A of the opponent can cost him 75 Damage.....it just has to be used different than i thought in the beginning. This Move really could make him better in the Tier List than he is right now....
 
kAb said:
i'll agree he does not have much in the way of deception, but he does have a few gimmicks and setups to acquire damage in times of need.

his post GI is superb. he has a few safe launchers, even more when spaced properly against most chararacters. his range is incredibly deceptive, he spaces better than people give him credit for.

wakeup imo isnt really a factor in most characters games, side roll destroys so many grounded options in SC4. even so, his 8B+K has a very odd disjointed hit box and can hit even if the opponent is clearly not around him.

throw game is decent, A throw to RO, B to switch position, and command throw for damage.

combine this with a few key moves that provide great hit stun and you have the tools neccessary to win.

and as always the SG damage is a nice bonus.
Click to expand...

Hmm, what's his best options post GI?

His launchers are indeed safe when spaced correctly, very hard to punish. His no brainer spacing with 66A is superb of course. The problem is he spaces and now what?!. That's my problem with him really, he seems reliant on getting in uber close to get his throws in (cuz of his throw range), or getting the opportunity to go to Crawl, or a heavy gamble with 1K. This is where i think his soul gauge damage is sooo important for him. He's nor particularly evasive outside of CR i don't think so he doesn't really thrive on getting CHs. Hmm, what are his best whiff punishers? 66K and 33A+B? Tricky to rank him. Everything seems solid but then when you play vs a good turtle it gets sooo hard i find. How do you break a good defense with the lizard?

His stun moves are somewhat ok i guess, but the only useful one in general is 66A(CH). It's most common by a wide margin.
 
post GI revolves around a few things. bread and butter is 3B, you have to be dead on with its execution but if done correctly it has to be re GI'd. nets you somewhere in the low 70s on hit. from there it becomes a guess on whether you want to take that 70 damage or attempt to re GI and eat more from a 11B/33B/44B.

thats only in open field mind you. opponent back to the edge/wall he gets similar mixups with moves that RO/wallsplat and have to be re GI'd. GIng obviously helps your SC game as well.

once i space with something like BB/6B/66A i'm usually passively stepping 1_7 to my opponents weak side. this is usually to entice them into trying to kill my step with a horizontal. from there i can oftentimes discern(depending on the character and move) if said move is high and proceed to go under it with 11B into big damage + wakes. if i can end up baiting in this manner through spacing i can also step in and out and wiff punish pretty well with things like 3B/A+B/22B/11B depending on the scenario.

the range of his throws isnt really an issue for me. when you are up close most of your key moves are quick and give tons of advantage while leaving your opponent right in your face. AA/6A/3K all give +6 on hit(6A and 3K are -2 and -4 respectively which lead to a few gimmicks) which allows you to mix up pretty much however you like. 4K is a i14 mid that gives you + 4 and sets up nicely for 6B, which doesnt matter if it hits or is blocked at that range in this scenario, it still achieves that ideal distance. +6 allows you to force 3B as well, it cant be interrupted by anything above i13, trades with i14 which in most cases still allows you to land your 33A+B followup to trade 70 damage.

he really could use 1 more decent low, i sorely miss 22K from SC3. i find for that last bit of tick damage going into LC at range and using LC A is great. it has WAYYYYY more range than it appears.
 
Just for fun, here is my own tier list. Unlike many other peoples tier lists, I am basing mine ENTIRELY on what I've seen characters do first hand. This means many things

for starters, many characters will not even be on the list. Setsuka is a prime example. I've played her exactly once and the player, whether inexperienced or just ill prepared for Voldo, didn't show me anything that she could do.

secondly, that means this tier list will be completely irrelevant as it will be based just as much on the players who I've seen use the characters as the characters themselves, and not the characters inherent strengths and weaknesses. In other words, I do not believe any of the following to be true on any level

THIS MEANS DO NOT TAKE THIS LIST SERIOUSLY OR TRY TO ARGUE ((Unless your arguments are as senseless as this post))

Z: Algol, Hilde
4: Voldo
Q: Cassandra, Astaroth, Cervantes, X, Ivy
2nd Q: Kilik, Nightmare, Seigfried, Sophitia, Seong Mina
3rd Q: Mitsurugi, Taki, Talim
Batman Symbol: Apprentice, Maxi, Yoda
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back