1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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You still have no good guaranteed options against a move that is a HUGE thorn in Astaroths side.
If throw is your only option for punishment then thats already bad in itself. And Sieg can do the same thing to you. Im still curious about how you think that Sieg has to outguess Asta 3:1 to win, when mathematically speaking not even Talims dmg potential is bad enough to warrant that ratio.
Youre also seriously overrating 6B in that regard. As theres no point where Sieg has to spin in this matchup. Ch fishing, Tcing your throws and stepping your shit how he will dmg you. The same goes for Asta the other way around, as they both suck at punishing each other. And practically speaking, Asta only really outdamages him in one of those points.
 
The point is when all else isn't working for Sieg what will he be going to? If he's not spinning then he's not getting away from Bullrush, period and if he's not getting away from Bullrush then his SG is moving away. He has tools yes but in general that would make the match up 5-5 in no ones favor but I would never say Sieg has the advantage. I have yet to see anyone break JF throws (or throws in general) consistently to the point were they would be standing to fight you head on with that type of confidence.

It's just my take on the fight and my general opinion. This goes off of how Sieg players fight against Asta in general and how I see them fight against him.
 
Ever thought about stepping Bullrush?
I personally also dont have any problems breaking his JF throws, so I dont think that should be held against the character on a theoretical basis. Bullrush also doesnt work the gauge that well. Siegs SG damage is vastly superior overall. And because hes faster and dominates the flow at most ranges he also has a way easier time employing it. In general tho, with how rare CFs are post-1.03 this is not even really factor.
 
Tiamat
Someone bought 3 up as some kind of advantage he has over Asta, I just pointed out that Asta's 6A beats it completely on block. Any follow up after 3 means that if that asta player hit's 6A on counter hit, he can mix up with a throw, or 6AB combos.

These vids speak for themselves IMO...without going too much into theory.
 
Voldo's HArdest Matchups.

Voldo v Ivy 4:6 Ivy
- Her range and options are too much for Voldo

Voldo v NM 5.5:4.5 Voldo
- NM is still very punishable, but has incredible Speed at range. Voldo still wins this one

Voldo v Amy 4:6 Amy
- I cannot play close range or mid range, cuz she beats all my options

Voldo v Asta 6:4 Voldo
- All I fear is Low throws in Stance. Which can still be broken, or escaped with the correct stance shift. And I can break BAck throws.

These are the ONLY characters that give Voldo a hard time.
Hilde, Algol, Kilik, everyone else....dont affect Voldo's game one bit. Voldo has an answer for everything except Long Range Speed. In Close pressure helps too (Amy) but is not quite enough (asta).

Also I'm glad other people realize Sophie vs Kilik is NOT in kilik Favour. I mean....I can AUTO-GI all your best moves and punish everything else. Why Me worri!? Sophie Top 3
 
KrayzieCD said:
In tournaments you are not allowed to pick the stage. The only thing you are allowed to do after a loss is to choose another random stage....meaning, you could theoretically get an even smaller level.....it's all up to chance.
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i know this is kinda late but. If you like me you will notice that Random is not random and you can actually decide what map you want with random. All you need is timing. Cause the maps stream in the same repetitive order.
 
It's funny because that's not true. I've looked into stage 'choosing' and even if you press the button on the exact same stage multiple times in a row, the stage you get is still random.
 
6A is a shit punish and sig can bait asta to punish 3b, and in turn punish asta. Sieg has much more variety up close and mid range. The only thing asta has that sig has to worry about is his JFB grab...big deal, just mash B escape all day or iwrB it. Sieg can put the pressure on asta very easily and can go for a soul crush if asta decides he wants to be defensive. Bull rush is easily stepable and any time he wants to whore it out, or use it at a small disadvantage or adv, 8B+K totally takes that away. Asta's knee is a good interrupt for a lot of siegs stances but once again 8B+K can take away a lot of his interrupts as well. From affar Asta's A+B can be somewhat troublesome but is easily blockable on reaction or if anticipated b+K will auto GI it.
 
I'm sorry but i'm not going to change my view on this match up guys =)

I need to play you all, but so far after playing DTN, IceColdEdge or KDZ siegfried, my opinion is still the same.
The difference in damage is just too much for the risk they both take and 8B+K evasion is fine, but you can delay your 6K or your 66K, or just throw him out of it for some serious damage.

NinjaCW said it well IMO :p


Asta vs Sieg is 6:4
 
Nori said:
His first sentence started w/ "These are Voldo's hardest matchups" and the "4" is in Voldo's direction, so I think he's implying Amy wins it.
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Well in that case, WTF ?
Amy is awful vs. Voldo.

IMHO her hardest matchups are Voldo, Setsuka, Mitsurugi.
Ivy (and probably Hilde) are also pretty hard.

That Voldo dude is hardcore, he just outranges nearly everything Amy has, and is always somewhat TC
(even his damn throws are TC!)

Last weekend I was doing a FT5 match vs a friend, winning with Amy vs Ivy, and at 3-0 he switches to Voldo. I lost the two next matches, and had to take Yoshimitsu to win 5-2. Not that Yoshi is that good vs Voldo, but I didn't want to do Voldo-Voldo mirror and at least Yoshi-Voldo is not a desperate matchup. He can actually poke Voldo (BB, AA, 33B, 9K, 3K, 9B+K, FC 3K ...) at close/mid range, and throw him are the same range as he can, which Amy can't do !

People seem to forget that as soon as Amy is slightly ranged, she only has 33B (i19) and 66A+B (i22, super steppable), and that's about all. At the same distance Voldo can do a simple BB ! (i15 or i16 depending if he's in NS or BS), or 66B ...
 
General Info: (Siegfried)

I'm not saying Siegfried sucks or anything but Siegfried's situation post blocked 3 and Ws along with his other moves that go into that stance are not in his favor vs. almost everyone in the game. The fact that even more trickery has to be done to get out of an unsafe situation is a negative in itself.

Ex. Kilik vs. Siegfried

Post-Block 3 scenario runs directly into 6AA guaranteed and maybe even aB which is a counter hit if anything is attempted from the Siegfried player. That's either a 44-Damage situation from 6AAA or 54-Damage from aB,B. Not to mention that if the Siegfried player cancels his Stance after 3 blocked he is at -20+Frames which runs into A+B 80-Damage. Its a mixup situation that is not in Siegfried's favor. Also Siegfried has fake frame traps in any move he does because all of them can be stepped cleaned to his right/ur left except his A that leads to like 26-Damage and is not a NC so the second hit can be blocked. In response to that Kilik can duck into WsB. Nothing is in Siegfried' favor. The same rules apply to Ws except that 6A and aB cannot beat him in terms of frames but he can still be stepped creating a frustrating mixup that is not in Siegfried's favor.

So I imagine Astaroth has the advantage since if I were to compare a universal scenario that any character can do more harm to Sieg provided they do damage Asta benefits two fold in those scenarios. After considering that Asta beats him in everything else such as range game, damage. CF damage is good on Sieg's part but its never at the forefront in a match.

Tresto:

Don't listen to DINO he never knows what he is talking about!
 
Foxbot said:
I agree for the most part. Though I would advocate 5:5 vs Cassandra, 5:5 vs Mitsurugi, 6:4 vs Nightmare, and 3:7 vs Setsuka.

I am still interested in the Astaroth vs Siegfried matchup. Asta and Sieg players, care to explain?
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Foxbot : The more I play against Astaroth, the more I believe you are right about Setsuka vs Astaroth.

Something-Unique : I give up, you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, it's not a big matter.
We obviously have different point of view about the characters, hence because we can't understand each other we won't be able to agree on this match up. But please, stop saying I disrespect korean plays because I really don't and it's quite the contrary.
 
Maxou:

I never said u disrespect Korean play. Not once! What I do think u do however is impose ur opinion over everyone else's with no real room for discussion. Thats what it seems like.

I'm conducting a project so this website/community can finally have a tier list and newcomers who are interested in things like that can come in and look at it. Everyone's opinion is simply not gonna work hence this thread since its almost a year and we have nothing concrete.

So to be the most objective and accurate I have sent emails out to the top 3 of each character. It includes people who have been to tournaments and are doing things out there with said character. I mention this because I am trying to find 3 for Setsuka but there aren't many Sets players doing much. Cube (Korea) is doing something and thus I have his matchup chart.

I want to ask u for one but it seems everything on ur list is theoretical since u haven't been to a tournament and u have yet to provide me with vids or anything substantial to back up ur claims. His list also has differences in key matchups such as Voldo, Kilik, Sophitia and I can imagine why since the U.S. now has an idea of Korean competition.

Because of that its hard to consider ur opinion on anything without thinking ur biased or something which I don't want to believe. Almost every other matchup chart that I have received so far all have common ground for almost the entire chart (I haven't finished sending all since my inbox is almost over flooded). Looking at urs in the Setsuka forum it stands by itself with no real discussion.

It's worth noting I also asked people for there own opinion on the matter and things came up almost entirely the same.
 
Thanks to everyone for responding to the Asta vs Sieg match-up.

IMO,

1) 6B+K is a better answer to Sieg's tricks than 6B, though CH 6B does a lot of damage.

2) After blocking Sieg's 3, Asta player can mixup between doing 4B (can hit normal or CH depending on what Sieg player does) and JF throws. This mixup is fairly good for Asta but I don't think it's enough to discourage Sieg players from using one of Sieg's top 3 moves.

KingAce: why punish 3 with 6A when you can punish with 4B ?

NinjaCW: I don't have the same success getting CH 6B haha. Also, we're discussing match-ups here and can safely assume JF throws are just as breakable as regular throws.

S_U: stepping Sieg is much harder for fat Asta =( ... Also, some matchups naturally lead themselves to have longer matches (as in each round would take more than 30 seconds) and this can make CF game a more significant factor.

Maxou: I feel sorry for Rock players because I rate Setsuka vs Rock at 8:2 hahah.
 
You're right my list is only a reflection of my opinion and it may be very wrong !

Cube would be the right choice !! He should have a lot of versus experience since korean plays so much characters !
 
Foxbot:

That makes sense Asta is a big dude with a somewhat shitty step. Also it does sound plausibe that the matchup could take forever.

Also its funny u have Sets vs. Rock as 8-2 because Cube (Korean Sets) has that at the exact same number.
 
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