1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Su if Bullrush is i18 and te CT is i17, that does not mean you just have 1 Frame for anything.
I mean you make your choice in that moment in which you can differ the animation of Bullrush and the Throw.

So lets say you Twitch duck and you need about 8-10 Frames to seperate the Throw from Bullrush, so you still have 7-9 Frames to react and either stay crouched or block the Bullrush. Bullrush IMPACTS at Frame i18 and the CT at Frame 17....but that doesnt mean you gotta react at Frame 16....

Twitch ducking is pretty good against Asta, you can duck the Throw, still block Bullrush and even avoid Crouch Throws if you dont duck too long.

I think in my Tourney Vids against Jag the Gemini i blocked a lot of Bullrushes after a little duck, unfortunately the vid isnt up yet, have to watch it again myself...

EDIT: Boooooh! Sacharja was faster.
 
When i speak about CT i mean Command Throw :)

And yes Crouch Throw should be i13...so if you just twitch duck for 8 Frames, you still have 5 Frames to react to the Crouch Throw, 10 Frames for Bullrush and about the same for a CT (Command Throw :) )
 
Sacharja:

Point taken.

Docvizzo:

I think ur confusing ducking with twitch ducking (fuzzy guarding) based on ur frame numbers. You need more frames to fully duck than u do for twitch ducking.
 
@ SU

I dont think im confusing anything. You dont want to Full Crouch, thats the whole point behind it. So i dont see why the number of Frames to Full Crouch (i think iWS Moves are +5) is relevant.

But yeah we basically speak about fuzzy guarding against Asta as a solution to his Throw/Bullrush Mixup...
 
When I was at EVO I thought RTD was seeing my Bull Rushes and just holding down and waiting for it. This is because he was defending the mix up very well. So I threw a curve ball. . . 1k/1b. What happens is once people see that your attack is not a throw they will stand/step or w/e.

His throw game is just that powerful because you're so worried about it EVERYTHING else hits lol.

And currently all I have is the AI to play against with my Setsuka, so I'm just practicing hit confiriming stuff.
 
The situation i'm speaking of is this:

Let's imagine the Astaroth is on offense and i'm on defense and he is directly in front of me.

i18-Frames Bullrush and i17-Frames Throw is coming which is more often than not the case by fuzzy guarding perfect execution your gonna first duck the throw and then stand in time to block Bullrush. This is impractical 100% but its a situation than can occur and does occur. If u ducked in that situation u would be using more than 1-Frame which means u won't recover fast enough to block Bullrush and u will get hit.

Since this situation is not always the case u may find urself eliminating both scenarios but thats because in technical terms u were in a situation in which the opponent didn't execute them that way.

For example:

Skip to 1:44 - 1:48 in this vid.
There are a number other vids that have similiar scenarios but I want to show u a fixed scenario in which the result would always be the same. Setsuka fuzzy guards in 1-Frame making it looked like he never ducked leaving him able to punish Mitsu's stance with B+K from the second hit of Relic A. That's a fixed scenario but in general even when it comes to expecting throws u want the same results to be the most safe.

The reality is if ur not doing that and ur able to block its because there are other variables in which there wasn't the needed specifc execution.
 
Um um, again, I know I'm not suppose to post in here but, twitch ducking used to be my favorite thing but it has failed me numerous times. I've thought exactly what you guys are thinking, but what happens when your opponent delays their grab slightly?
 
I'm not talking about fuzzy guarding. I'm talking about holding 2 and G, then releasing the stick if I'm not getting grabbed. =P Bullrush has a fairly distinctive startup, though now that I think about it I perhaps shouldn't have generalized so far. I am used to people ducking and then standing up in time to block it because I used to main him in SC3, so I myself have seen the startup animation of about 100 million bullrushes, as have most of the people against whom I play.

So even if we simply grant that I'm completely crazy in that last assertion, though, I believe my general point holds in that Astaroth's mids are significantly less frightening than most of the cast's, which gives opponents much more leeway to guess with crouches, etc, particularly since Astaroth's most effective way to discourage such behavior is a throw which is both launch bait if whiffed and escapable if it connects.

Once again, Astaroth can hang with any character with a couple of correct guesses. It's just that over time, all other things being equal, he should on average end up inflicting rather less damage than a lot of characters, hence my insistence that the math is against him.

Edit: Nukleur--If your opponent delays the grab a little, well, he got ya! Still. . .50% chance you take no damage.
 
Nukleurfire said:
Um um, again, I know I'm not suppose to post in here but, twitch ducking used to be my favorite thing but it has failed me numerous times. I've thought exactly what you guys are thinking, but what happens when your opponent delays their grab slightly?
Click to expand...

Its the same answer that u have arrived at u get caught. That's the other factors I mentioned before and I think I also stated it. Delaying things catch duckers in general.

Its funny because a new French Kilik player had messaged me about 3 days ago for tips and how do u stop twitch duckers or duckers from getting out of FotD. I told him that's Kilik's major problem in that he has no real mids that cure this problem so to get around it u simply delay things.

What i'm getting at is there is always a counter measure for everything but if you wanted to be the most safe well timed twitch ducking is alot better than just ducking.
 
CT= command throw, so I presume that is fine for this debate.

If CT = crouch throw and people are saying it is too good... pain...
 
Asta's 4B normal hit, throw opportunity, mid opportunity
Asta's 6K normal hit, throw opportunity, mid opportunity

Asta's mids can lead into throws, so yeah...

Twitch ducking works when you suspect a throw, but half the time, you get thrown because you didn't expect it. And you could duck, only to raise into a throw.

So I would have to see this ish in action. It's to theoratical IMO.

I personally would rather gamble with WS moves, than just plain ducking.
 
KingAce said:
Asta's 4B normal hit, throw opportunity, mid opportunity
Asta's 6K normal hit, throw opportunity, mid opportunity

Asta's mids can lead into throws, so yeah...
Click to expand...

Asta's 4B on normal hit is +0, so no throw/mid opportunity.
Some characters can get out of the 6K reg hit set-up.

I agree with most of Hates said. I don't agree you can see bullrush on reaction, but Asta does not have good mids to make you scared to duck unless you're by the edge (where Asta is really deadly, but that's another topic).

Hates broke down 4B and 6K. What else Asta has? BB(i20), haha not nc and just B is -3 on hit. 3KA(i18) is not bad since if 3K hits, they have to block the A which is slight advantage on block, but 3K by itself is no damage (this also sucks if they do block 3K). 3A+B(i22) is okay, but it's slow and no range at all.

His best mids are Crouch Throw and Bullrush. I don't think Bullrush gives you that much advantage on hit (except ringouts), you can pretty much get out of everything by teching to either side. I'm starting to think that 33/99 version is better since on hit you're on top of them.
But in the end, Crouch throw is probably the best option. It's fast with good recovery. Only downside it's still 50/50. I'm wondering how Cervy gets 65dmg off of missed CT? I think you pretty much have to anticipate it.
 
The other problem is that he's using Cervantes as the example and then applying it broadly as a generalization, when fact of the matter is that Cervantes does more damage than most other characters, so Asta's risk vs reward on doing throws and such will be better for him against most characters than Hates is indicating.
 
I'm generalizing, sure, but there's a distinct damage threshold. I figure if you can get in the 50ish range from a WS move you're mathematically better than Astaroth. I'm actually looking into tweaking the formula by which I evaluate this stuff, though, in order to give Asta more credit for those games wherein he lands a couple of throws in a row.
 
Hates said:
I'm generalizing, sure, but there's a distinct damage threshold. I figure if you can get in the 50ish range from a WS move you're mathematically better than Astaroth. I'm actually looking into tweaking the formula by which I evaluate this stuff, though, in order to give Asta more credit for those games wherein he lands a couple of throws in a row.
Click to expand...

Might want to also account for Delayed throws/delayed mids.
 
Those would be mathematically difficult, and since the net result of a delayed mid is blocking and that of a delayed throw is a 50% chance of escape, I'm not sure they would affect the numbers all that much.
 
Asta has a very fearsome ring out game too. That's instant 240dmg !

BTW how do you count the fact that Amy has different weapons on different opponents ?
For example
- vs. Asta, 66BA hits and puts her at +5 frames, 2B+K does 50dmg followed with delay ~ 6A+B,A
- vs. Xianghua (smaller hitbox), second hit of 66BA whiffs and can be punished, 2B+K does only 39dmg because the 6A+B,A doesn't fully connect
 
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