Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

Update: Dec 25 - Patience finally pays off?

SC is back! Get ready, fans! http://twitpic.com/3j16ui

Well I'm sure most of you were worried, as all the surprises we've seen so far have been Tekken related! But you were promised something spectacular, and now you finally get what you've been waiting for... Daishi Odashima, Lead designer for the Soulcalibur series has just opened up his own twitter!

Odashima-san used to be a tournament player in Japan back in the Soulcalibur 1 days! Since he's the new director of all things Soulcalibur at Namco, and by his own admission, has the final say on his team; you should follow him on twitter. Merry Christmas everyone?

I say again!! The day has finally come when I can tell you all about it. Soul Calibur is BACK !!

Update: Dec 23 - Katsuhiro Harada recently unveiled a new trailer and character for Tekken Tag Tournament 2. He also promises that more surprises are on the way:

Thanks for tons of comment !! OK next !!
I have something new to tweet about tomorrow night. so get ready!
(Not a footage. But important)

Update: Dec 21 - from Katsuhiro Harada's twitter:

Sorry guys I'm so busy now.
However, I want to show you something within the course of a few days...

Original Post - Namco-Bandai's Katsuhiro Harada has been having a lot of fun with his twitter account lately; their community manager FilthieRich is no different:

Looking and waiting for something special?
Make sure to continue following and tell your friends to stay tuned ....

What could this cryptic message possibly mean? Well that I couldn't really tell you. All I can say is that Namco-Bandai is probably planning some big surprises for the holiday, and you should pay attention to the twitter feeds. Just look at that face... you know he's up to no good!

We'll do our best to keep you updated with any relevant information here on 8WayRun.

 

It is possible to consistently win with those characters if the person has good enough adaptation and mind game skills, among other skills, to overcome the odds.

If social science means tier lists are based on real life testing with humans and not robots, then this statement is wrong. That's the whole point of tier lists, not to be just theory. Luckily for you, however, social science can be seen as a pseudoscience and nothing of absolute substance. But because it's our most reliable way of testing the truth, disagreements go nowhere. Therefore, saying it's possible to win with the lowest tier character becomes counterproductive for us as a whole, especially since it has never happened throughout SC4's lifespan of 2+ years.

 

Happy new year to you too and everyone else. :p



Yeah, like you said, SCIV inputs are fine for itself. It shouldn´t be any more complicated or easier ´cause hell, SC is not VF or whatever. I just think that some SCV characters shouldn´t be that just frame heavy again and then i am fine.

VF moves are really no more complicated then SC moves. In fact, in many cases, they're less complicated.
The application of said moves correctly can be a lot more complex/difficult though. VF and SC are both proof that complex controls are not needed to have depth. That doesn't mean applying moves in VF can't be difficult, but it's often timing based, and more importantly knowledge base. That said, VF does have a few overcomplex moves, just like SC.

As for having characters require execution, all characters do require it already. It's not like you're just hitting buttons. What people are complaining about (At least me) are the characters that require execution that is harder then it should be, for no logical reason. My belief is that a mediocre player should be able to perform a character's entire movelist with an hour's practice at most, with the exception of JF's. Once you know the moves, then you can learn the game. What's the point of making people who are learning struggle with the game controls just because they like the wrong character? Any other genre this would be rightfully ridiculed as poor design. Make them struggle with learning how to use what they learned instead.

JF's are by nature 1 frame moves, just like SF links. I'm not arguing for the removal of JF's, just the removal of JF's that are poorly designed.

That said, I respect OOF's side of the argument, but those challenges will still exist in a more balanced game also, you don't have to intentionally gimp characters, nor should it be accepted as good design. Honestly, part of me wonders if you'd be offended if Talim became a top tier character.

 

VF moves are really no more complicated then SC moves. In fact, in many cases, they're less complicated.

Generally speaking, you're righ. But there are exceptions. For example - Akira's legendary shit is truly hard to pull off.

BTW - I think that Daishi-san is doing a fairly good job with that twitter account of his. ^_^

 

JF's are by nature 1 frame moves, just like SF links. I'm not arguing for the removal of JF's, just the removal of JF's that are poorly designed.

This is a myth in SC's case. Many of it's JFs have quite a big window. They're not all 1 frame. In fact, I'm not sure any of them are 1 frame. This is why you can mash out so many of SC's JFs. Sure, not all of them are mashable, but I don't think even Setsuka has any 1 frame moves. Most of them have around a 3 frame window, IIRC.

Also, Talim used to be really really good. Oof wasn't offended then.

 

The only things I don't like in SCIII/IV are the just impacts. Impacts should only be "stronger" depending on the window of opportunity for the impact. Some attacks are slow and are more easily impacted while fast attacks or attacks in succession (like Rock/Ast's three spin attack - the third spin can be impacted ONLY if just timed or Darth Impact) have a much smaller window. The smaller the window, the more reward you should get for your impact attempt, should it succeed.

As for Just Frame inputs, I'm really only in favor of them when they are unique moves, not extra damage rewards for current attacks.

Finally, for the mind games talk - Mind games involve making your opponent throw the wrong counter measure. Feints and Intimidation are basically the only mind games you can legitimately use, which are somewhat absent in IV. The random throws A and B variants are not mind tricks, its simple random guessing in most situations unless there's a ring out situation. A mind trick would be to feint one type of throw, cancel it before it lands but have the player prematurely input the wrong countermeasure which carries over for a second, and then execute the other one.

 

How about they use the powah of the cell and do that morphological anti-aliasing they used in The Saboteur? Also copy more redundant data on the disc to reduce install size on PS3?

 

A move can be FAST, POWERFUL, RANGED or SAFE.... Pick only TWO. No move should ever have more or less than two of these properties. That is really the best way to create balance. These are simple rules of economics.

Wow, I'm late. But, shouldn't EVASIVENESS be a category?

That's bullsh*t. If there is a highly skilled player that is dedicated enough and has enough of experience with the game, then it is possible. Kura getting second at Nats with Talim, and Omega getting top 8 at Evo with Zas already proved this.


Just like how there are people who like to minimize how much they have to think by using Amy or Hilde, there are also some people who actually prefer to be forced to think 10 steps ahead of their opponent by using a low tier character. It gives a greater sense of satisfaction from winning, and provides more room for self improvement.

And Oof while I agree 100% with this thought process, I think that it's hard to make a legit case for it based on the fact that it hasn't been done yet. If Kura had gotten 1st at Nats with Talim (and only Talim) or Omega getting 1st at Evo with Zas then that would be real proof.

 

Also, mind games do not exist. there is only fear.

 

a lot of times slower attacks can bait a fast GI. Very often people will GI the second they see the enemy twitch. These cases would reward to highly for Gi'ing fast moves, while giving less reward to a patient player who blocked the slow move.

 

Greater satisfaction for winning an uphill battle does not equate to good balance and game play. I'm sure a lot more people would be satisfied using a character that...well works.

Once again Rock vs Astaroth... I play Rock cuz he's stupid fun and good for trolling. I know he's low tier and I love him for it, but I'd rather him have tools over Astaroth and some guaranteed damage options...and well being a throw dependent character...actually having better throws than Astaroth.

A Rock vs Astaroth match requires the Rock player to be significantly better than the Astaroth player. That shouldn't be. The span of skill needs to be narrowed for what will determine a winner on average. You could theoretically win an entire tournament with Mitsu using only AA, BB, 2K, A+G, B+G, Gi, G. If you were a robot you have everything needed to win right there perfectly every game, but we're not; we make mistakes and when you have a character that has no specific advantages over the cast and it requires the opponent to make significantly more mistakes in order to lose, it's not fair.

Hilde vs Ivy...Ivy has to make 1 mistake to lose in a lot of cases, Hilde must make several. Add in the fact that the Ivy will be playing extremely safe and limited, she will likely not be going for maximum damage....furthering the amount of mistakes Hilde can make.

Balance can generally be summed up by the needed mistakes to win verse said character weighted with the characters ability to be in moments of favor and create those moments of favor. Even if Rock's damage were upped and guaranteed, he's still bad because he's rarely in a moment of favor besides a good anti-wakeup and he has very few good tools to get into a moment of favor. Astaroth is good at all ranges, can push and pull the opponent, has great guaranteed damage, great RO game, good SG game. Astaroth has weakness, but he has a lot of tools to put himself in a good scenario and he's very strong once he's in that scenario limiting the potential for a mistake. Amy needs the opponent to make a lot of mistakes to win due to low damage, but it's offset by the fact she has incredible tools to get in favor and stay in favor. Rock and Mina are simply bad at all these.

 

Just FYI. Ivy is at advantage vs Hilde.

 

As long as there aren't over/under powered characters the game will be balanced enough. I'm hoping for better but that will at least make it more reasonable for someone maining the worst character.

I'm happy that Harada said right now the focus is on TTT2 and SC5 so that means we will see the game before TvsSF which is a long way off.

In regards to test playing and such I think we can see if TTT2 gets test played, if so maybe we can expect a chance to test play SC and give our 2 cents.

 

They usually have 'Rocket Tests' for AE games in Japan.
There are questionaires for the playas to fill out after playin.

I (and many of the playas I know) went to the one for SCIIIAE.

For non AE games I don't know what they do (beyond in house testin)...
At the game shows (TGS, Tokyo Game Show here) they put out the demo or test versions for play.

 

Also, mind games do not exist. there is only fear.

You being serious or what?

 

Just FYI. Ivy is at advantage vs Hilde.

Umm since when? Just because Malek raped them Evo 09' doesnt mean Ivy had advantage, Maleks just fucking good. VERY few characters have a good match up with her. Ivy isn't even tied with Hilde. She's not her worst match up, but it's an uphill battle. Hildes C3A gets her out of so much stuff it's not even funny.

 

You know that it's an uphill battle when Ivy's best move against Hilde is that kamikaze SW 44K.

That's the -only- half-decent move I recall that will not get you C3A/B-ed to death.

PS. I can vouch that Kura took Evo 2k9 by storm because no one... NO one expected a Talim to even show up at that stage to Evo but more importantly, the breadth of knowledge that Kura had of the game and all OTHER characters to begin with. -Not-, necessarily just because of Talim's underdog moveset.

 

As long as there aren't over/under powered characters the game will be balanced enough. I'm hoping for better but that will at least make it more reasonable for someone maining the worst character.

I'm happy that Harada said right now the focus is on TTT2 and SC5 so that means we will see the game before TvsSF which is a long way off.

In regards to test playing and such I think we can see if TTT2 gets test played, if so maybe we can expect a chance to test play SC and give our 2 cents.

There's always going to be under/overpowered chars. You can't balance a game perfectly. I just want the tiers to be very slight, like in SSF4, KOF98UM (yeah I know, Krauser, but everyone else is balanced, and Krauser's beatable) or VF.

As for 3 frame JF- that's good. Improved netcode/input buffers (input buffers was part of SC's netcode problem) would make this a better system. One of my beefs with SC4 was it felt like the input buffer was really tiny. VF does it right here- with a 10f input buffer.

(other games, I believe Tekken's is 5f, HDR/SF4 is 15f)

 

You being serious or what?

Nah, totally serious. I've tried to explain this to some people but few actually agree with me.

In a way it helps explain why trying to work a "mind-game" against a random spammer doesn't work. Or when people who don't know about frame traps interrupt your followup move out of major disadvantage.

Basically no fear = no hesitation = no confusion.

 

Well, feints work against overconfidence too. I just wish they incorporated more feints instead of the random A or B indistinguishable throw crap. Of course feints never work against mindless spammers though, but those types are easy.

 

You being serious or what?

He is playing a mind game on you with that post Vince. Mind games even exist in real Martial Arts. If mind games doesn't exist then I don't know why I was trying to read my opponents all these years of SC gaming...