Official Discussion for SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

Lizardman is definately better than X IMO.

Dino: Hilde is top...... but again, this is all opinion. Also except for Yoshi's unreliable JF (4AAAA, 1AAAAA, 3KKKK) his JF are not that hard to hit 90+%. Setsu's are definitely harder, so having complex JF is not really criteria to make a character high mid as opposed to high.

Paranormal: Sophie aint over Kilik. :)
 
Hilde - Decent character, but I ruin her Doom Combo by Throwing or Waiting one Second Longer. Also, You can interrupt the Charge moves if you know which one is coming, which is usually predictable.

Yoshi vs Setsuka - Almost on similar Grounds. Yoshi has more Tools, but Setsuka overall arsenal of moves, mixups, block stun, pushback, make her a force to be reckoned with. Yoshi's more damaging combos require better execution than Setsuka (re: 44bB combos, iMCF comboes).

X and Lizzy should be on same ground. Lizzy can damage, but X can control the Flow of the Match Much more.

Soph is better than Kilik.
 
If i make a tier-list like Dino´s then my list is like this:

Top Tier - Ivy, Setsuka, Voldo(not sure), Sophie, Kilik

High-Mid - Hilde(not sure), Amy, Cass, Yoshi, Asta, Mitsu

Mid - X, Sieg, NM, Cervy, Lizzy,

Low-Mid - Raph, Yun, Tira, Taki, Zas

Low - Mina, Maxi, Talim, Rock,
 
D.I.N.O said:
Hilde - Decent character, but I ruin her Doom Combo by Throwing or Waiting one Second Longer. Also, You can interrupt the Charge moves if you know which one is coming, which is usually predictable.

Yoshi vs Setsuka - Almost on similar Grounds. Yoshi has more Tools, but Setsuka overall arsenal of moves, mixups, block stun, pushback, make her a force to be reckoned with. Yoshi's more damaging combos require better execution than Setsuka (re: 44bB combos, iMCF comboes).

X and Lizzy should be on same ground. Lizzy can damage, but X can control the Flow of the Match Much more.

Soph is better than Kilik.
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Well ya of course there are ways of increasing your odds on the Hilde Match-up, but that doesn't mean she is any lower because of it. Throwing does not ruin her doom combo, since first you have to be in range to throw and second if she steps any attack your negative frames will make you eat it regardless.

Yoshi's more damaging combos do not require better execution than Setsuka. At all. iMCF is about the same as JF Umbrella to execute. 44bB combos aren't used for damage, they are used for RO. 44bB hardly adds any damage to your staple combos. Even 44bB combos are easier to execute them many Sets combos. Either way I do agree on Sets being better than Yoshi.

X-Lizzy. That is your opinion, specially with something as subjective as controlling the flow of the match.

Soph - Kilik. How so ?
 
Sets does far more damage on NH than Yoshi with much safer mids. The thing is with her there's a million things to fuck up. I would like to see a clip of someone really serious playing her 100% nailing every just frame all the time. I greatly disagree with Soph vs Kilik.
 
Forget tier lists. The better player will win regardless of which character they play. I've seen some really mean maxi's, some good raphael's, and a talim that would make you swear she was top tier. Heck, even rock can be played to a level that is competitive and challenging.

lets imagine that if you and your opponent executes a move at the same time and only 30% of your moves hit them and 70% of the time your getting hit (@ various ranges). Even a situation like this does not mean the match-up is necessarily against you. All this means is that you have to turtle a little more, wait for openings, and take the free damage. It could also mean you have to stick to the safe moves, or reduce the moves in your arsenal to just a few that do work. Also consider the damage of the moves that are usefull. If I'm Nightmare and I'm fighting AMY, I might get hit 3 times before I get off 1 hit, but that one hit may equal Amy's 3 hits in damage, so it all evens out.

Most people consider this a bad match-up for Nightmare. It's only bad because almost half of his moves become impractical especially when AMY is in your face and in HER range. If played correctly, (turtling, fast or safe moves) you can bring the match-up close to 5-5.

You have to adjust your playing style a little for each character you fight ( or player for that matter). If you make all the correct adjustments, you should be at least able to stand toe to toe with anyone (player or character). Sometimes adjusting to a specific player is useful. When I play my offline buddy (my one and only), he is almost always attacking, no matter who he uses, so I play carefully.

That's why I say that the better player will win with any match-up. A good player is quick to adapt, and can therefor handle anything, even hilde doom combos, as DINO states.

A tier list is closer to a popularity contest than it is to an actual measurement of a character's over strength. I'm not saying tier lists mean nothing, but they should be taken with a grain of salt. Just look at how beastly RTD's apprentice is, and then try to convince me that he's only mid tier, because I'm not buying it. Isn't it just as likely that he is the only person who has figured out how to play Apprentice at the top tier level? I have a feeling he's just that good. I would bet money that RTD could pick up ROCK and still win a tourney. Why? because the player is what matters, not the character.
 
Nirf said:
Sets does far more damage on NH than Yoshi with much safer mids. The thing is with her there's a million things to fuck up. I would like to see a clip of someone really serious playing her 100% nailing every just frame all the time. I greatly disagree with Soph vs Kilik.
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If i can get a camera I'll try and record lost providence when he's on point. He ran me through with 1A:A:A and 1B:B mixups(fuck number talk i can't react to it). Whenever i stopped locking up I got an umbrella in the face. I was entirely outclassed. I do feel like you guys arent paying attention to that setsuka has poor step, sure it doesn't keep Voldo from being good but it does hurt setsuka's game enough to mention.
 
Tier list is about characters that gave players too little or too much "weapons" and "tools"; its like a handicap... its like compare a incredible hitman with a old revolver with just one bullet and a completely scrub with a uzi... if the hitman knows how to use the knowledge and experience can win even without shoot the bullet... but gave the uzi to another hitman, and you will know why tier list exist...

Another thing about this is how a character can match the gameplay preferences of a certain top player; Zazalamel is for me a character with excelent command list and very fun to play, but its so hard to use; too much high moves to crouch and punish... to much verticals to evade and punish... too much vulnerable moves to punish! a top player can win using him? of course, but against another top player using Ivy it would be a long hill to climb...
 
Didn't know that Sets has poor step. Will look out for that. If you can hit the just frame on 1AAA consistently it's obnoxious as its hard to punish hard, if you want to avoid playing games with her completing or not completing the third A you need to just punish with a FC/WS move that has TC animation throughout. I.e. with Voldo in order to punish 1AAA with 66:B you would have to guess if she is finishing it or not, otherwise you have to take FC3B which is way less damage. Very good risk/reward on that move.
 
Considering that the tier lists for sc4 has changed dramatically since the game's release, and also considering that there's NOW only a handful of competitive players compared to what it was before (sc2 days), I still think it's safe to say that there's more to be discovered about certain characters in terms of execution or combos. Tier lists can change at any time.
It's hilarious that the tier lists from back in late 2008 almost always placed hilde in low tier. Once the doom combo was discovered, it all changed.
There's definitely more out there in this game yet to be tapped. I'm learning new tricks and mind games all the time. I'm not the best player in the world, but I WILL put up a good fight against anyone offline, even if I do lose. If I lose, I'll just want to keep trying until I eventually figure out my opponent. Predictability is the enemy of success in this game IMHO. Even knowing frame data isn't nearly as important as knowing how to trick your opponent. I still don't know hardly any of the frame data, but I just "know" how fast or how much range a move has based on experience. Why study frame data to be able to sneak in a quick counter if experimentation gives you the same knowledge? Besides, I would rather know it on an intuitive level rather than a mathematical understanding of moves. Math and video games?? forget it man.
 
Top: Big RayRay, Smexy Genie.
God: Voldo, Setsuka, Vader, Sophie, Ivy, Algol, Mitsurugi, Astaroth, Amy.
Upper Mid: Xianghua, Yoshimitsu, Hilde, Taki, Kilik, Cervantes.
Mid: Cassandra, Lizardman, The Apprentice, Zasalamel.
Lower Mid: Raphael, Siegfried, Nightmare, Maxi.
Bottom: Rock, Talim, Mi-na, Tira, Yun, Yoda.
 
theres no way talim is absolute bottom tier, if she placed second at nationals. I know I know he out played the other people but if she were pure absolute trash then she would have gone no where.

I'd place her at least lower mid. but bottom next to rock? Hell no.
 
She has too many unwinnable matchups to be lower mid tbh... I mean, who gets put through hell against the lizard?!
 
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