Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

Well I must say...my Raphael has been improving very much. I broke the habits I posted on Page33 of this thread.

3A is proving to be very useful for getting out of pressure situations quickly and safely. It has saved me on many occasions. The knockback on counter is sweet. It allows me tip the balance so I can put the pressure back on.

I use 1B after I catch them with the Shadow Evade B(notation please?). Though if there is a better option after stun, some help would be greatly appreciated. I do the same after a 3A wall-stun. Sometimes BBB or 6BB~ but it's not as reliable for me.

Using 1K to catch step is great. I just have to be quick with it or I get punished. If I stun, I use 1B.

Although, preparation has been serving very well for me as a pressure tool. Even against decent players.

So...I've come to the conclusion that Raphael is quite linear but if you can keep them in the track and not allow them any movement; it seems to work out very well.
 
about 3A >.>:

it seems it wallsplat making opponent bounce 45° right...
i never tried how many 3A i can use btw.....in corners it becomes quite funny its like pong
 
if you're in a corner and feeling really confident you may as well try 2_8B+K
 
WuHT said:
if you're in a corner and feeling really confident you may as well try 2_8B+K
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Combo I made with that: SE B. 1B(w!). 2_8B+K(Usually 2 on 1P and 8 on 2P). 3A(w!). 3[B, B, B BE. 120 something damage. I think A+B, A. 66A+B is better than 3[B, B, B BE though. Just for sexiness and flash.
 
Paranormal_Oreo said:
Combo I made with that: SE B. 1B(w!). 2_8B+K(Usually 2 on 1P and 8 on 2P). 3A(w!). 3[B, B, B BE. 120 something damage. I think A+B, A. 66A+B is better than 3[B, B, B BE though. Just for sexiness and flash.
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Yes that was a nice video

After a wall stun, 3(B)~prepBBB 85A+BA works well if they're against the wall, for some reason A+BA connects on the ground with slightly more reliably for smaller characters (bigger characters are probably just as easy)
 
WuHT said:
Yes that was a nice video

After a wall stun, 3(B)~prepBBB 85A+BA works well if they're against the wall, for some reason A+BA connects on the ground with slightly more reliably for smaller characters (bigger characters are probably just as easy)
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Thank you.

The last B in Prep B, B, B is the same stun as 2_8B+K making A+B, A not possible. You'd have to skip the 3[B, B, B B and go straight to A+B, A. 66A+B for max damage.
 
Paranormal_Oreo said:
Thank you.

The last B in Prep B, B, B is the same stun as 2_8B+K making A+B, A not possible. You'd have to skip the 3[B, B, B B and go straight to A+B, A. 66A+B for max damage.
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You're right about the same crumple property.
 
New direction (more theory than real game)

How do you guys feel about Raph's ability to handle high attacks ? His TC potential is really strong, considering that for the whole animation of prep, you can SE manually (or automatically to high attacks). At the end of prep you can crouch right away or take merely 3 frames before you can TC with 4(B) into prep again. I'm not saying TC will automatically win games, but this is one of the reasons why I've been so insistent that B+K have an early evade-frame window as opposed to late.

A combination of the threat of prep4 anytime during prep (as Raph advances), then a tiny window once prep ends before Raph can B+K (remember this move has a bad history against simple moves like BB) any other verticals doesn't seem overpowered to me.

The only argument I can see against is based on reaction-time: If your opponent will never attack you during preparation stance (being ultra safe), then the early evade frames are wasted because they'll react once they see Raph has finished.

In games, has anyone tried to use empty prep much ? Watching youngfox's videos, heaton's etc and it seems to be pretty neglected and maybe in fact has negligible mix-up potential at the cost of severe risk. Even taunt-cancel dash techniques seem to be more practical despite prep's ability to handle interrupts.
 
my personal opinion

actually the wholeprep is based on opponent deciding wether to block or step...there aren t many other choices.
Prep4 against a blocking opponent means he will be able to run towards you and punish you heavily before you recover from the retreat (i mean before you can perform ANY move in or out of stance)....
that on REACTION.
fortuately most players ignores the fact when the animation stops backing you still are stucked in the animatin for lot of frames :| so it works expecially if opponent is not confident with spacing..
SO you can prep4 into SE
 
Prep4 as a spacing tool is way inferior to prep4 as an aGI tool.

The hurtbox of Raph doesn't actually retreat that much (probably to ensure that the aGI will trigger) plus the lengthy animation before he re-enters prep (probably for balance reasons to prevent abuse of prep4~prep4~prep4 retreats) means that Prep4 isn't a great spacing whiff-drawing tool (without meter, his whiff punish is piss-poor on NH).
 
i feel like prep 4 is a solid mixture of both a spacing and aGI tool. 3b into immediate prep 4 will make troublesome moves like lexias 3b whiff and the same can be said bout pats 236 AB.

Anyway about empty prep i feel like it has some issues. First it assumes ur opponent isnt going to react to raph stepping forward while swinging his sword. Second is that few people will attack raph w a high as he is in prep. Third is that if you opponent is willing to stand there while you shuffle forward in prep , then he would of done the same if you entered SE. Since SE gives you a better mixup, i rather use SE instead of empty prep. Finally is if you move forward due to prep and decide to press a button like prep k, then you dont have that extra range that will make moves like that safeish on block.

Speaking on that topic ive done some testing and the space moves like 3b give you make it really difficult to punish things like prep k. Watching my vids from the tourney i noticed i got away without people punishing prep K so i decided to test to see if it was due to MU inexperience or something else. So i tested 3b into immediate prep k and tried to have alpha pat twister punish it. Between the distance made by both attacks and having to do that complicated input, he couldnt punish it w that particular move. To clarify i also tried the FC3xY input to see if it was faster and it didnt work, though i was never able to test the JF version( im an execution scrub lol)

From my testing it seems like prep k is -18 on block(gets hit by siegs 3b but not cervy's 3b) but w lil blockstun. So if someone hesitates slightly when blocking it then the pushback from combined 3b into prep k makes it relatively safe.
 
WuHT said:
New direction (more theory than real game)
How do you guys feel about Raph's ability to handle high attacks ? His TC potential is really strong, considering that for the whole animation of prep, you can SE manually (or automatically to high attacks). At the end of prep you can crouch right away or take merely 3 frames before you can TC with 4(B) into prep again. I'm not saying TC will automatically win games, but this is one of the reasons why I've been so insistent that B+K have an early evade-frame window as opposed to late.
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I feel Raph deals with highs extremely well, just like SC4. It's TCing mids that have been his bane. I really wish VE was still around or at least B+K was useful. Honestly, with some of the shit a lot of characters have in this game, you should be able to B+K out of Prep and SE.

WuHT said:
In games, has anyone tried to use empty prep much ?
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Empty Prep seems to recover slower than it did in SC4, with the window to input Prep moves lasting longer. Back in 4 you had Prep A if they decided to get impatient and VE or standing mixups if they froze. The mixup options don't seem that great in this game. Throw or super delayed Prep K BE-- Maybe 236B, but none of those are very appealing. Plus with CE interrupts...I dunno, you might be able to catch people once and a while, but I can't really see it be worth the risk most of the time.
 
Following ideas that leaked into wishlist, talking about Raph's future,

Raph is looking at a nasty situation when his things are blocked, but he is technically safe for them. This isn't the case for other characters! Why so long for some kind of meta to evolve from that strength?
Switching between these taunting, safe moves that demand patience, to ranged vertical pressure arrayed against rival's comfortable game, back to damnable Prep moves that actually -are- unsafe but must be outthought. With a background of solid play, of course... in my understanding of play, this is the exhaustion that does in every player, even the greats. They misappropriate their response , get their expectations confused for one moment, and walk into a trap because the hand is quicker than the eye, and when it happens once, it snowballs.

I am thinking even Raphael is past my limit, the way I knew Taki/Natsu is, demanding inputs faster than I think.... but can't this be done? Cannot players be unraveled with sickening transitions like this, with technical safety to prop him Raph up?

--
Add on , Raph deals with highs well. I was reflecting on this. A strong Raph style must surely harvest this. ... that no [H] can be used automatically against him. Is this where baiting someone into you works better than being guarded about it? Certainly against, Ivy, there's no highs she even needs to use on you. Break throws, glitch CE.

I believe in empty Prep, just because I believe in my late Prep 4. I think it absolutely stops the first time you screw up and die to a 2A. The mindset just won't work. You have to be working within the "shit 2A isn't auto-answer" situation. Ofc, if you're enemy is Partisan, he may as well have your controller plugged into a splitter at the base of his medulla oblongata, before reaching your console.
 
Raphael mirrors are the worst thing in the world, and you should never, ever subject yourself to them.
 
Are you suggesting that a key to playing Raph is to know your matchups so your opponent can't get away with anything gimmicky ?
 
Switchblade922 said:
I use 1B after I catch them with the Shadow Evade B(notation please?). Though if there is a better option after stun, some help would be greatly appreciated.
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As Mr.Hai (or was it Fendante, you all look the same) said, you get some of Raph's best damage off of SEB the combo thread has all the damage differences but here are the specifics.
SEB:
3(B)~Prep BBB, A+BA gives the most meterless damage, but it is unreliable (and even more so on certain characters).
1B for the wall splat.
66(B)~Prep A+B gives the most reliable meterless damage, and has the laugh.
33k(BE), 2B gives the best damage for 50% meter, but only works at close range. It will also ring out.
3(B)~Prep Bb(BE) gives good damage, but it the least efficient out of the meter options.
3(B)~Prep BBB, CE gives the best damage for the meter out of all the meter options in terms of efficiency.

WuHT said:
On empty Prep
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Empty Prep last so much longer (35 frames) than in SC4, that exit moves feel become far more necessary; which is why we don't have SC4 Prep~A I guess. Delayed K is also an issue, since K is so slow to begin with a delay is usually too late or blocked. Either way, Empty Prep into grab/exiting via prep ending does not as viable as before.
I mess around with some pressure in prep using delayed moves, and then get bodied. Either way it shows how AB makes for bad pressure (and how Partisan hax even without his main).
 
I'm not sure how empty Prep was ever useful. At least in SC5 you're never stuck being unable to do a move if you wait too long (unlike SC2-4, where waiting too long put you in an awkward recovery between Prep and neutral).
 
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