SC5 'Ivy' Story/Possibilities/Speculation

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It's not so much 9B being overpowered than it is jumping moves in general being overpowered.

9B: Linear, unsafe, disadvantage on hit, must counter hit to produce any meaningful damage.

I'd actually say Yoshimitsu's 9K is more "brainless."
 
It's not so much 9B being overpowered than it is jumping moves in general being overpowered.

9B: Linear, unsafe, disadvantage on hit, must counter hit to produce any meaningful damage.

I'd actually say Yoshimitsu's 9K is more "brainless."

That's the problem with SC4 for me, jumping moves....just jumping in general is too good. In previous SCs, most mids will hit a jumping character. In this game it seems they made the hitbox for a jumping character shrink in half or something. Most mids and even a fair amount of highs will whiff right through someone while they're jumping.

9K w/Yoshi is the most braindead move ever. I wish you cold LOVE posts, lol. Fast, safe, horizontal. Only thing better about Ivy 9B is the fact that on CH it leads to great damage and since it has a good amount of tracking it hits CH a lot.
 
And speaking of complainers being ignorant... I can just say same for the fan boys who support the dominatrix too much giving them the excuse to defend every aspect of her. If anything this thread needs is not just Ivy players but also players who fought and deal against her to give their input.

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O yeah. Basically, meeting them half way on any "buff" they suggest is already too much.
 
Good grief. Really the issue here is that the people asking for nerfs don't provide any logical analysis on why the move they are complaining about is actually op.

The coolest thing I heard was franman saying that 9B is punishable but it's hard...or something. Really? It's not Ivy's fault that your execution is bad.
 
While I agree in general, I have yet to see anyone punish 9B with i16s or i17s when not anticipating it. Usually if people punish it at all it's with AA, K or something fast like that, so she mostly gets aways with punishment given that this move is actually -17. No player that I have ever played (including the best french players) punished it hard.
 
The coolest thing I heard was franman saying that 9B is punishable but it's hard...or something. Really? It's not Ivy's fault that your execution is bad.
I don't even care if it's her fault or not; whether I'm capable of punishing or not. In fact this isn't about me or any other player's bad execution.

With the way Ivy already is in SC4 and for such a move even if it's linear and risky, it's fast and has reach so I think it should be even more punishable.

Compare that to Sophie's 236B (another linear and risky move) the reach is good (though it may not be as long as Ivy's) and it's i13-fast yet it's launcher punishable.
 
Franman, sorry, but what are you talking about now? Sophie's 236b4 is the best punisher in the game, and it's not a move that you randomly spam hoping to CH... how can you even compare this with 9B. You have no idea how many characters would KILL to have a i13 mid with 50+dmg on NH and such range.

9B is pretty much the same speed as many launchers in the game, yet it doesn't give anything guaranteed on NH.... I see absolutely no reason to nerf this move. Just because "it's fast and has reach" doesn't mean anything actually. There are tons of such moves in this game, many of which have much better properties, like Setsuka's 33B for instance.
 
But even if you can't punish 9B, on block it -17. So it a free mixup for you. Although 9B blocked at max range you might be really hard to take advantage of. But most of the time when Ivy does 9B she will be in your face.

Ivy does need some nerfs.
Things like if they made WP 6B+K or WP6B+K2_8 goes into SW
Push back of 1BB+k is less but not like BD
9B only available in SW
SW BB does not track

It not that any of these move are broken but in combination with each other they make Ivy really strong.
Nerfs have to make sense, cause you dont want to make the character lose all their good tool. Then they become boring. Just balance some stuff to make other characters with her,

Also franman Sophie, Cassandra, Setsuka, all have mid i13 punishers so to balance it they made very punishable. 9B is i17. It can not punish. This move is good for interrupting, but again it not he same like Sophie Cass, or Set. So you can't compare.

Dam franman that last gathering really got to you. 9B FTW!
 
Franman, sorry, but what are you talking about now? Sophie's 236b4 is the best punisher in the game, and it's not a move that you randomly spam hoping to CH... how can you even compare this with 9B. You have no idea how many characters would KILL to have a i13 mid with 50+dmg on NH and such range.

9B is pretty much the same speed as many launchers in the game, yet it doesn't give anything guaranteed on NH.... I see absolutely no reason to nerf this move. Just because "it's fast and has reach" doesn't mean anything actually. There are tons of such moves in this game, many of which have much better properties, like Setsuka's 33B for instance.
Alright Ring that is very a good point, but here's another problem I wanna address and I'm pulling off from this quote
This move is good for interrupting.
That is another problem I have with this. There are cases when I just guess right by using basic mids or even highs yet I still get interrupted. If I do a high or mid why should I deserve to get interrupted? Even iGDR gets interrupted. If any characters have any TJs like Ivy's I would complain as well the problem is I base it on the characters I've played against.

Dam franman that last gathering really got to you. 9B FTW!
Eli I've been playing against your Ivy for a very long time, I've been trying to figure out a way around it by playing; I've also tried to do research in the Cervy threads on how to deal with Ivy but there isn't enough vital info. It's been long, you can't expect me to just shut up and deal with it.
 
If you get interrupted when using mid/high moves then you use then at either wrong time (disadvantage etc) or wrong range. Cervys bad step and big hitbox can also play a role here but this isn't some magical tool that you interrupt you out of anything. Against Ivy you should spam 3A+B and 2A+B with Cervy. aB should take care of most 9Bs too (when used in good range is also pretty much safe vs her), and you could also try B2 which is faster than Ivy's foot stab and can attack-throw her out of TJ moves.

Do you also have problems with WP 3A? This one works pretty much the same like 9B except TJ, it's even faster, safer and kills step.

I think Noface can give you some advice how to deal with Ivy using Cervantes. He used to play against a good Cervy player and if I remember well he believes Ivy is at disadvantage in this matchup.
 
If you get interrupted when using mid/high moves then you use then at either wrong time (disadvantage etc) or wrong range. Cervys bad step and big hitbox can also play a role here but this isn't some magical tool that you interrupt you out of anything. Against Ivy you should spam 3A+B and 2A+B with Cervy. aB should take care of most 9Bs too (when used in good range is also pretty much safe vs her), and you could also try B2 which is faster than Ivy's foot stab and can attack-throw her out of TJ moves.
All these moves you suggested I've tried them all but they don't seem to be as effective. Also for some reason when I react after blocking Ivy's 9B I can't punish with aB. I think it would be better if I just show you a vid of the way I use Cervy against Eli's Ivy if time permits. I have an old one but Eli has drastically improved on Ivy since then, I wish I've entered the hyperbolic time chamber to catch up with him.

Do you also have problems with WP 3A? This one works pretty much the same like 9B except TJ, it's even faster, safer and kills step.
I'm not sure what that one looks like, but I guess I'm venting my frustration due to the fact that I couldn't figure out a way to come around 214B and 7_8_9B the way Eli uses them.

I think Noface can give you some advice how to deal with Ivy using Cervantes. He used to play against a good Cervy player and if I remember well he believes Ivy is at disadvantage in this matchup.
The advice I get was FCA+B GC but I've tried it many times already and to me it doesn't seem to be much of an effect. Two good players according to NoFace I could think of is Hates and Babalook. The problem is Hates has long retired due to school and Babalook is an online player. The problem is with online you can get away with a lot of things according to Egg, FC A+B GC is a boost online.

Also I disagree with NoFace on the match up but that will be a story for another time.

NEwayz I think the best is to show you a recent vid which hopefully next week.
 
All these moves you suggested I've tried them all but they don't seem to be as effective. Also for some reason when I react after blocking Ivy's 9B I can't punish with aB. I think it would be better if I just show you a vid of the way I use Cervy against Eli's Ivy if time permits. I have an old one but Eli has drastically improved on Ivy since then, I wish I've entered the hyperbolic time chamber to catch up with him.

I'm not sure what that one looks like, but I guess I'm venting my frustration due to the fact that I couldn't figure out a way to come around 214B and 7_8_9B the way Eli uses them.

The advice I get was FCA+B GC but I've tried it many times already and to me it doesn't seem to be much of an effect. Two good players according to NoFace I could think of is Hates and Babalook. The problem is Hates has long retired due to school and Babalook is an online player. The problem is with online you can get away with a lot of things according to Egg, FC A+B GC is a boost online.

Also I disagree with NoFace on the match up but that will be a story for another time.

NEwayz I think the best is to show you a recent vid which hopefully next week.

FC A+BBB is great and all, but it's really not what I believe makes this a favorable matchup for Cervantes.

It's really one simple concept: Risk vs. Reward.

I played against an online Cervantes player who executes combos on a level that most offline players aren't even capable of doing consistently.
With this in mind, all of these so called "spammable" and "mindless" tools that people seem to complain about really become very situational to use. I firmly believe that Cervantes is very dependent on execution. You have two options - practice, or switch characters. You can't really deter somebody from doing certain things if you can't make them pay as much as possible for doing them.

When you compare the possibility of landing a counter hit 66A or 3A in coiled stance with the possibility of getting your 1B, B+K 8wayrunned into a 3B iGDR delayed 28B into a BT mixup, or 8wayrunned into a FC A+BBB punish from step (babalook does this ALL THE TIME) into a ground hit or a tech trap, you start to have a new perspective on who really needs to adapt their game. Whip stance 6B+K spam a la Malek?
Sorry, B+K parry into full BT B+K combo. Can be done on reaction. Same with Sword stance. You simply have a lot of variables to deal with against a Cervantes player. You have to actually guess right to score damage or soul gauge pressure, it's not as mindless as people make it seem. You have tools like step (best one), 3A+B, FC A+BBB, and 44B against sword. A large part of Soul Calibur strategy is multicoverage and increasing the opponent's amount of variables in their pressure/mixup.

Really what some people don't realize is that the only reason these low damage tools that Ivy has are good is that they force you to be passive in some way. Ivy can't simply afford to sit there and keep playing this risk/reward guessing game with Cervantes. She's gonna have to run up to you and try to do a mid/throw mixup eventually...and she's not exactly the strongest character in that regard.

This brings me to another point - your mixups vs. Ivy are actually a lot less risky. In case you didn't notice, Ivy's not exactly the greatest punisher in the world. She's decent in sword stance, but then again, you should be discouraging her from using that stance to begin with. Pressure with 1K (she has absolute crap punishment for this move), 3B (she gets a K punish in every stance except sword, which is, amazingly, disadvantage on hit, unlike other characters), and your throw game. Let's not forget that your throws are very potent and that your 3B and 1K have some tracking - this is especially important to remember if Ivy is in SW or WP stance, as her step is less effective.

I really wish people would take the time to sit down and study characters that they have problems with. I had to do it for Amy. Granted, I still lost against Thugish Pond, but for one he's no slouch in his own right, and for two, my local scene is dead and I didn't actually have a chance to practice against Amy - the only people I really played with were Babalook and IMT dragon on xbox live. But anyway, all of these so-called overpowered characters have their weaknesses. It just saddens me to see that Namco actually thinks Ivy needs big nerfs. The only character I've ever thought was overpowered was Hilde, and I still believe it has more to do with how certain stages are designed rather than the actual character itself. But hey, maybe it's because my own character is so OP. Hehe.
 
While I agree in general, I have yet to see anyone punish 9B with i16s or i17s when not anticipating it. Usually if people punish it at all it's with AA, K or something fast like that, so she mostly gets aways with punishment given that this move is actually -17. No player that I have ever played (including the best french players) punished it hard.

I think it's tournament nerves. Look at players like Ramon. He's really on top of punishment. Again, I really don't think it's fair to call something overpowered just because you personally have problems reacting. These french players are good, no doubt, but maybe their punishment ability isn't the reason why.
 
Yes, it's not overpowered because Franman has problems reacting but I think he has a point saying that it's actually not as easily punishable as many people say it is. This move is very unsafe, but mostly in theory. The reality shows that things can be quite different.
 
Nah someone will not punish a FAST -16-17 move with moves that are that speed unless it's a one button punish or single direction move. This is why nobody will punish Amy 2b+k with a 66b with voldo, Amy, or 11ba with Mitsu etc.
 
i do it online, not 100%, but it's really not that hard. this is with cassandra. 236b isn't really that hard, but most characters don't have hard punishes anyway. at least ivy's jump move is unsafe unlike some other characters (*cough*yoshi*cough*). At least you can do BB which is decent.
 
BB if you are in range, that is. I don't know, but her 9B seems to be one of the few (or the only one maybe?) TJ moves in the game with such recovery on block. On the other hand, no other move like that stuns on CH, so it's pretty balanced. Besides, it's been like that in past games as well (or even better, SC3 CH 9B->2A combo with +8 for mixup. Now this doesn't work because 2A is slower, but 9B to SW 1KB can work under certain circumstances)
 
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