- Moderator
- #121
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
You've been really nice to me lately, so I'll share some of the chicken I buy (with your money) with you.
No one recorded, but NDK was there. Ask him for a play by play.
Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion
- Thread starter Slayer_X64
- Start date
- Status
No one recorded, but NDK was there. Ask him for a play by play.
- Admin
- #122
GreatOne1939
I Knew It!!!
Keep dreaming. You should know better than trying to take food from a fat man. Especially Popeyes! Lol!
But on some real shit, I remember you beating someone at Dev I didn't expect you to. Whether it was the matchup or the person I can't remember but it was something you could definitely hang your hat on.
Bastet
[12] Conqueror
Hmm, here's a useful matchup guide against her...
Yeah, many Sieg experts and other contributors have formed matchup guides for many chars and they can be found here: http://8wayrun.com/threads/siegfried-matchup-guide.7162/
Don't forget the SCIV Sieg SA ^_~
Solo
[14] Master
I usually remember it, don't know why I didn't look. Thank you though.
Signia
[13] Hero
You guys make way too much of a fuss out of some random (mostly) online player barely losing in a good matchup
I mean it's not like it didn't happen before against KrayzieCD's Maxi
How did you place in your pool, btw, Heaton? How did you do against other players there? I wanna know if my excuses mean anything or if you're actually a good player
I mean it's not like it didn't happen before against KrayzieCD's Maxi
How did you place in your pool, btw, Heaton? How did you do against other players there? I wanna know if my excuses mean anything or if you're actually a good player
NDK
[12] Conqueror
Signia did TAS B a couple times then got dropkicked, or something like that
Ok, first of all, this matchup is perfectly winnable but I would label it as a 6:4 to cassandra if the player is strong on execution as it basically feels reminiscant of Xianghua, but with more damage potential and better punishers at -16+ at the trade of slightly weaker at lower - and gratifyingly, nothing at -11 ^^. I say reminiscant of Xianghua because the key in my mind to beat both characters is patience, good defence, dominance in the throw game and SRSH.
Offline I've fought five differant Cassandra players, so I'm not an expert on this matchup but fairly well versed as one of these players is nowhere near as good as he would have us believe, one is a longtime sparring partner of mine but is bad with Cass, one I had no problems with at EBO, one is Kalas' and I can beat it because I know him well enough but the other was Keev. Now, vs. Keev the most effective tactic was to take the match slowly, play safefried and catch him out after bating agi's, backsteps AND MOST IMPORTANTLY iFC 3B (God, I hate that move ~_~.) but space control proves much more difficult: Cassandra tops Siegfried at mid range and it can feel a little intimidating trying to keep her out, so the nomal ag:A 33B mixup as you may have gathered is riskier. At mid range, Cassandra can cause you to whiff very easily and if she does, you will eat A LOT of damage if they're on point.
Now as I said, this is a competitive matchup, bujt you have to be prepared to play an ugly match: take it slow, play safe and don't just throw out attacks - unless its a punish, consider how she could beat the attack in that situation and have an option at hand to kill the answer to use as a mixup when you feel it safe to attack: Cassandra players will disrespect frames very readily if they get a read on you, even your most basic pokes need mixups eg:
Cassandra player (and this is quite a common tactic to feel out a player in early rounds) will 33K with no followup to see how you handle it then adjust accordingly. What a lot of people forget is that you have an oppertunity here as well - consider how you handled the situation: did you turtle up, use an iFC move immediately, just duck, move, regular attack, throw? What did you do?
For this example, lets say the Cassandra player knows you will GI 33K A+K on reaction but turtle for fear of 33KK whiff punish oppertunity after a round. Because the opponent is 'just' Siegfried, the Cassie player won't care about the - on hit too much and from earlier reads is lible to multiple 33K's one after another to chew away the health bar. You can make a read on this yourself: you know you took the mixup defensively and know Cass is liable to take this option now, so shut it down: as you eat 33K, commit with a 3B and take a free CH 3B, SCH A+B for your trouble. Now the mixups evolve even further from here, the Cass player can easily reset their tactics from this situation and go into 33K ~ step or 33K into block and this is where throws and 6A come in. You see how all of your answers must have their own counter offensive or counter defensive options must have further options?
I won't go into details onto other string mixups like 3A, 3AK, 3Adelay K as this applies to most of the above example, but I will briefly talk about 4BB:A. 4BB is often used by Cassandra players as the base mixup with throws and 33K/1K at close range and the reason for this is that a GOOD Cassandra can confirm the attack was not blocked and hit the just, making for an i17 53 dmg mid on hit. Now, 4BB by itself is -15 and thus punishable by Siegfried, but not for more than 25 damage, so here I would not recommend punishing to tempt the Cassandra into following through very often: 4BB:CHA is just too painful + KND - the risk/reward is too far in her favour. Most often, take this situation defensively, be prepared to duck and punish the A, but make sure you mount your offense or further defence after confirming no just finish to this string, you won't get free damage, but to keep the pressure on, the Cassandra player has to take bigger risks.
Finally: dun, dun, DUUUUUN! Its time to learn another JUKE! FUN TIMES! Cassandra's biggest launcher is the incredibly linear 33B, should this connect, Cassandra can take close to 90 dmg, but in order to reach this, the first comboing hit is A+B, which on air hit can be JUKED and ends the combo immediately.
There is no formula to beat Cassandra outright, she's far too well designed for that, but her mixups ALWAYS have a certain degree of risk (albeit low) and the biggest step to beating her is truly understanding that and being prepared to make equal risks to counter them. That aside, learn her frame data, find out what you can punish and what leaves her close to 0 as this gives insight into her offence. Maybe even learn a little Cassandra yourself as that's what I do if a character is giving you trouble.
Now, take no offence here, but matchup analysis only really applies at high level and when both players know the matchup well and I'm assuming you and your friend re not playing to that standard. If I had to guess, I'd say what you're losing to is either a situation/s tht you don't understand or even worse IMO, misunderstand as this is what sets one mid level player above another most commonly. If you could record a few matches, I would be able to help you much more directly. For now though, this is the best I can do before work, lol.
Sorry about the wall of text (christ, I'm turning into Dylan, or worse, Signia @_@), but I hope you found it helpful. =)
Pantocrator and myself do that all the time to.
Generally, its because you were doing something OTHER than blocking, tut tut - if you had common sense, you'd turtle by an edge vs. Siegfried with any character if not for 1B, then for CH 6A to re-take positional advantage. There's nothing wrong with just blocking you know. And you can TAS B a blocked 1B. When I try this vs. Kalas I always eat a 4K punish and get RO'd myself.
This technique is a gimmick, it works against:
1. People who don't know Siegfried
2. People who think TOO MUCH
3. People being stupid
That said, you US players are generally rather dismal on your anti Sieg anyway so I can see why it would work so often. =/
Solo
[14] Master
I think I may have to completely revise my playstyle.
Signia
[13] Hero
I usually 236K to punish blocked 1B by the edge online. Something was certainly off for me to not punish it at all offline.
Ah well, thanks for the advice I guess. I definitely don't like to just stand there and guard, something I'm not gonna change in SCV. I'm thinking and hoping that being proactive will be better than holding guard and turning the game into throwbreak guessing contests. Of course if I still get my ass kicked I'll adapt
Ridiculous that you look down on this kind of thing, what you call "theory."
If the theory happens to not work, it doesn't mean the act of theorizing is wrong! That theory is just wrong!
- Moderator
- #133
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
Let's see...in the pool, I beat some Tekken player and then got bodied by Mamba (MAMBA!) and then had to take my nephew out to my sister so I missed my loser's. I was in the pool with Xeph, RTD, and lolo (I think) though, so I'm pretty sure it would have been the same.
The only people that consistently bodied me were Xeph, Krayzie, NDK, lolo, and Omega. Never fought NFK or RTD. I did kind of okay against LP, but I'm almost certain he was sandbagging (because we both know I'm scrubbier) and I more or less went even against Vincent. I also got Mamba back the next day and evened things up when he picked Voldo. Other than that, I was consistently beating everyone else. It wasn't a bad first outing at all, I think, for being my first actual offline event.
It's rather simple, really. I've explained this a few times before, as well.
Essentially, getting grabbed by either A+G or B+G puts you in a mix-up situation if I front step, akin to SRSH. This applies if you tech, if you roll, or just sit there - you gotta face it. However, the mix-up is between getting grabbed again (25/25) and 1B (50). The grab itself doesn't matter, since they both put you back into the mix-up, so it's pretty much just a 50/50 - SRSH is similar.
However, this mix-up has something that SRSH doesn't have - pseudo-safety. Getting SRSH B or SRSH K blocked WILL get you punished, no questions asked. 1B is interesting, however - it's -16, which is technically TAS B punishable and definitely AS B punishable. However, you rarely even AA or BB punished me after it. A lot of people - that is, everyone not lolo or Omega - treated 1B as a safe move, and NFK didn't even know it was -16 until I told him.
Not to mention, the whole idea of the mix-up is recursive - if you land a grab, step forward and repeat the process. If you land 1B, either they're rung out or a little ways behind you - in which case, step forward and repeat. Rolling also isn't a great option, since I have 1AA, and standing still gets you either 2KKKKK'd or FC A+G'd back up into it. I never had to do those, since you kept getting up into them, but it kind of covers itself.
Essentially, successfully implementing it requires playing at mid to close range spacing, making sure you always guess right, take advantage of character knowledge, and when you're wrong, use the option you know they won't punish. It's kind of like Amy, if Amy was unsafe and had a really big grab hitbox.
But enough about me, let's talk about Siegfried.
EDIT: Synraii, stop pre-empting me.
I look down on theory when it is treated as the be all and end all. It isn't - as Heaton proved against you, its mind games, judgement and reads built on a theory foundation. I look down on people who know their theory (as most half-decent players do) and then fail to treat it as a mere foundation and certainly not what makes a good player. You can know everything and suck at a game, there's much more to it than knowledge and I really wish you'd learn that, because you won't improve untill you do.
I fully agree with you that theory is absolutely necessary to know, but its a starting point, a fundamental - absolutrly nothing more. No matter how much you want it to be Signia, Soul Calibur never has, nor will it ever be a numbers game. Initiative and experience is what sets two high level players apart when the theory is known, you can only go so far with numbers. Otherwise you'd be winning majors, you disprove your own beliefs.
Signia
[13] Hero
pretty good, I was about the same, except I couldn't beat Vincent, could beat (drunken?) Xeph, and never played NDK or Mamba.
Nice strat btw, I didn't even think about 2KKK
...well then we agree
it's just that theory is the only thing you can talk about really
Jink
[10] Knight
Lol (in a non-mocking way), all these years & players are still just talking about offensive play. 1B is primarily a whiff punisher for highest damage or RO on normal hit.
Offensive mix-up is only & only supported by the rival's reactions.
1B landing for whiff punish is legit, 1B landing just because your rivals mistaken themselves into it is just that. Also 1B while closed to the ring edge is a NO-NO & not necessary because 1B can RO from quite far from ring edge.
"Knowledge is power" right? To that, I say: "Knowledge without exercise or/& practical application IS powerless" I know, been there before.. back in my scrubby pre-SC3 days..
===
On Theory: its just about each move's purposes overall in frames, range & re-location in the ring. Like saying: there's frame advantage, but there's also range & ring advantage. Train these by rehearsing with record mode etc. But just rehears them, don't let them auto-play by habit mistake during a match (which most new players do).
About my earlier statement about everyone still on offensive play: What purposes does SBH'(K) serve for? Name all you've DONE with SBH'(K) on actual battle on- or offline.
Knowledge, Initiative, Experience, & Luck: My core of all VS-play.
By Luck I mean that no matter how knowledgeable, initiative or experienced players may be during VS, they "swim" in a "pool" of odds constantly re-arranged by each action/reaction made.
Knowledge gives the general overview of the "pool" & its "angles", a starting point.
Initiative is getting IN the "pool" & "swimming" accordingly to the "angles", a leading point.
Experience gives a heads-up from the odd "angles" within the "pool", after each finished point.
Knowledge, Initiative, Experience & Luck: KIEL (as in: Chi-L)
Playing a couple of games with another player who also has KIEL then losing or winning is just a process of meeting & learning each others KIEL. Who's KIEL turns out winning is by Patience, Recognition & Mnemonic Strategies.
Self-crediting or bragging (inwardly) from results are lies. Winning & losing just happens, both meaningless if nothing was learned from.
Offensive mix-up is only & only supported by the rival's reactions.
1B landing for whiff punish is legit, 1B landing just because your rivals mistaken themselves into it is just that. Also 1B while closed to the ring edge is a NO-NO & not necessary because 1B can RO from quite far from ring edge.
"Knowledge is power" right? To that, I say: "Knowledge without exercise or/& practical application IS powerless" I know, been there before.. back in my scrubby pre-SC3 days..
===
On Theory: its just about each move's purposes overall in frames, range & re-location in the ring. Like saying: there's frame advantage, but there's also range & ring advantage. Train these by rehearsing with record mode etc. But just rehears them, don't let them auto-play by habit mistake during a match (which most new players do).
About my earlier statement about everyone still on offensive play: What purposes does SBH'(K) serve for? Name all you've DONE with SBH'(K) on actual battle on- or offline.
Knowledge, Initiative, Experience, & Luck: My core of all VS-play.
By Luck I mean that no matter how knowledgeable, initiative or experienced players may be during VS, they "swim" in a "pool" of odds constantly re-arranged by each action/reaction made.
Knowledge gives the general overview of the "pool" & its "angles", a starting point.
Initiative is getting IN the "pool" & "swimming" accordingly to the "angles", a leading point.
Experience gives a heads-up from the odd "angles" within the "pool", after each finished point.
Knowledge, Initiative, Experience & Luck: KIEL (as in: Chi-L)
Playing a couple of games with another player who also has KIEL then losing or winning is just a process of meeting & learning each others KIEL. Who's KIEL turns out winning is by Patience, Recognition & Mnemonic Strategies.
Self-crediting or bragging (inwardly) from results are lies. Winning & losing just happens, both meaningless if nothing was learned from.
Stryker
[10] Knight
Sorry for being absent all this time... Jink your posts are always very educational and easy to understand, thanks for your effort...
Right now we are all waiting for the early launch of the game, to be able to play the full game, and to break the anxiety to know everything about this new release... the only fear I have right now is all the haters who gonna say Siegfried is broken after WE, THE SIEGFRIED'S ARMY take CONTROL on the WINNING count on the SCV scene around the planet.
I'M SURE that everyone here will HELP each other to be BETTER and BETTER and COLLECT WINS in a OWNING percentage... SORRY for BEING so SURE about this BUT I COUNT with ALL of you AS much as YOU CAN COUNT with ME and MY REAL EFFORTS.
SEE YOU ON EVO2012 HEROES.
Right now we are all waiting for the early launch of the game, to be able to play the full game, and to break the anxiety to know everything about this new release... the only fear I have right now is all the haters who gonna say Siegfried is broken after WE, THE SIEGFRIED'S ARMY take CONTROL on the WINNING count on the SCV scene around the planet.
I'M SURE that everyone here will HELP each other to be BETTER and BETTER and COLLECT WINS in a OWNING percentage... SORRY for BEING so SURE about this BUT I COUNT with ALL of you AS much as YOU CAN COUNT with ME and MY REAL EFFORTS.
SEE YOU ON EVO2012 HEROES.
Did you even read what I put up Vs. Cassandra? Most of what I'm talking about is counteroffensive or as I would call it, proactive defence. If you have a better method of breaking down and explaining the Cassandra matchup, I would prefer you shared it rather than acting almost like Vincent, lol.
kPc
[09] Warrior
Damn I`m away for like a week and I miss out on quite a bit. with siegfried not beating sophy (which is incorrect, its hard not impossible), to cass strats to players going into theory battles.....syn def told the truth when blocking is your best friend. Not saying a good offense wont make a good defense but against turtles, and I mean true turtles, winning with pure offense becomes quite difficult. There is apparently alot I`ve missed and I only skimmed the forum so I`ll just leave it at that for now
Jink- I`ve done quite alot with SBH K, not with it alone but in tournaments between that and SBH A after auto parry makes a nice combo
Jink- I`ve done quite alot with SBH K, not with it alone but in tournaments between that and SBH A after auto parry makes a nice combo
- Status