Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

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Heaton said:
LAU pretty much said everything that needed to be said about the patch here. Basically, the only people Namco is listening to is people in Asia and anyone else they've worked with before hand. If Siegfried's getting nerfed, then I guess Japan is sitting on some crazy killer Siegfried tech that nobody here was even good enough to think about doing.

Or maybe they're just full of shit and nerfing things randomly. I can never tell these days. But the point is Namco probably never was, and probably never will, listen to us. I mean, Pantocrator is arguably the person with the most "pull" and weight to his name here, and if they're not listening to him, why would they listen to us?
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Well, when we sat down with Daishi-san and Yoshi-san for a few hrs at NEC, they did make it very clear to us that they do read the boards - specifically 8WR. Whether or not they will listen to every complaint, they do know we're here. If we discuss why some things may be good or bad for this character, while being as objective as possible and leaving all traces of 'manliness' behind... we might accomplish something - if only giving them some insight on what the American/European community feels.
 
Nightblade said:
Well, when we sat down with Daishi-san and Yoshi-san for a few hrs at NEC, they did make it very clear to us that they do read the boards - specifically 8WR.
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I think something was lost in translation and what they really meant by that was "We read this one thread and email each other about what we thought was the most hilarious part."

I mean, you can go read the pre-release wishlist we had for yourself here and see the three things they did out of all our suggestions. Of the things that we asked for and got:
  • Make B4 faster - 11th_dimension
  • Give B4 GB properties - 11th_dimension
  • Make a+ka:2A an actual JF - 11th_dimension, Heaton (note: sorry guys. bad idea in hindsight.)
  • Fix SBH's aGI window - Jink, Heaton, Slayer_X64, 11th_dimension
Honestly, I still don't think that Guard Break pressure is really modus operandi, and so I don't really understand the buffs to B4, but I'll take it. I also realize I fucked up on wanting a+ka:2A to be an actual JF - combined with no A+K inputs, it's extremely telegraphed now. And I think we would have rioted if they didn't fix SBH's shitty ass aGI window. However, there's still a ton of good idea in that thread, most notably ones that focus on stances and roulette, which got a huge shaft in this game, and were something that literally everyone wanted to see. Ask anyone, now or then, if Siegfried's stances and roulette need a buff, and the answer will unequivocally be "YES".

Of course, then you also have these fine gentlemen saying he's not bad at all without giving any reasoning at all, so maybe Namco reads their posts to justify the nerfing. Who can say?
 
Heaton said:
I think something was lost in translation and what they really meant by that was "We read this one thread and email each other about what we thought was the most hilarious part."

I mean, you can go read the pre-release wishlist we had for yourself here and see the three things they did out of all our suggestions. Of the things that we asked for and got:
  • Make B4 faster - 11th_dimension
  • Give B4 GB properties - 11th_dimension
  • Make a+ka:2A an actual JF - 11th_dimension, Heaton (note: sorry guys. bad idea in hindsight.)
  • Fix SBH's aGI window - Jink, Heaton, Slayer_X64, 11th_dimension
Honestly, I still don't think that Guard Break pressure is really modus operandi, and so I don't really understand the buffs to B4, but I'll take it. I also realize I fucked up on wanting a+ka:2A to be an actual JF - combined with no A+K inputs, it's extremely telegraphed now. And I think we would have rioted if they didn't fix SBH's shitty ass aGI window. However, there's still a ton of good idea in that thread, most notably ones that focus on stances and roulette, which got a huge shaft in this game, and were something that literally everyone wanted to see. Ask anyone, now or then, if Siegfried's stances and roulette need a buff, and the answer will unequivocally be "YES".

Of course, then you also have these fine gentlemen saying he's not bad at all without giving any reasoning at all, so maybe Namco reads their posts to justify the nerfing. Who can say?
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I didn't say he needs a nerf. Just fix his weird whiffing and he's fine. Nobody is going to be able to play against Sieg like a robot against roulette so it's powerful enough as it is. His CE is not very good, but how many other characters have CEs at this point that are an after thought to their meter usage? I honestly do not understand why Sieg players have single handedly attempted to make it seem like he's the worst character ever in SC. Damp players literally get thrown into situations they never intended to be in by the game but you don't see them up in arms with picket signs and low tier hero slogans.
 
mkl said:
I didn't say he needs a nerf. Just fix his weird whiffing and he's fine.
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I didn't say you did. I said Namco reads that and interprets it as a perverted justification for nerfing, which was a joke at Namco's expense, not yours. In either case I, and many others, disagree with you. I invite you to share your reasoning here - it would be interesting to see if you've thought of something we have not.
 
Heaton said:
I didn't say you did. I said Namco reads that and interprets it as a perverted justification for nerfing, which was a joke at Namco's expense, not yours. In either case I, and many others, disagree with you. I invite you to share your reasoning here - it would be interesting to see if you've thought of something we have not.
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Are Sieg players just pissed they didn't get the S-tier character that was in beta? You of all people should know that buffing a character relentlessly and potentially needlessly is not the answer.

The only things I see wrong with Sieg at this point are JF agA being slower, whiffing, and a some of his A+Bs in stances were removed. Yoshi got nerfed in several areas but most players are just learning to live with it and craft new tech with what they were given. Sieg will honestly be fine, especially damage wise, once the off-axis shit is fixed. If Namco was really kind they would fix agA as well and maybe tack on more of a perk for CE. But otherwise, separate what you think should happen and what actually objectively should happen in regards to the balance of a character and game.
 
Sacharja said:
I am extremely curious as to why you think that beta Sieg was even remotely close to S-tier.
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Never played beta, but all I heard from the Sieg crowd was essentially saying he was unstoppable and even other pretty good players bitching about a lot of his options. So, I can't say for certain but that's just what I've heard. That's the only reason I can think of for why there was so much of a backlash from Sieg's camp.

Yoshi's reach was nerfed into oblivion, iMCF is 1 frame worse and TCs later in the animation, RCCing afterward is suddenly a massive chore, a:B+K doesn't ring out any longer, 6K2K is gone, 44A+B with the 66 swap no longer is a great whiff punisher, he has the worst brave edges in the game, lost two stances and all the moves that went with them, a:B+K is now incredibly difficult to pull of making the move almost useless in some players eyes for risk/reward, all of his unblockable charges now get locked in at a certain point (same with everyone else) which removes a lot of his old gimmicks, etc.

None of this means Yoshi is E-tier. Hell even us Yoshi players have whiffing and off-axis issues. I've stopped using 22B as a side step punisher because I've seen it go through people more times than I can count. With all of that, lolo still placed top 8 and none of us have bum rushed the forums with "Sieg got fucked give him back all of his shit Bamco".

EDIT: One quick look at the Sieg forum lead me to this http://8wayrun.com/threads/haters-gonna-hate.9317/

Syn going on a college thesis about why he thinks Sieg being awesome is justified.
 
mkl said:
The only things I see wrong with Sieg at this point are JF agA being slower, whiffing, and a some all of his A+Bs in stances were removed. Yoshi got nerfed in several areas but most players are just learning to live with it and craft new tech with what they were given.
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Fixed. I think the difference between sieg and yoshi, is that while both in the beginning give you the feeling that they seem worse at first glance but not bad at all, sieg is a char where you discover more and more flaws over time rather than finding new strengths. With yoshi its the other way around.
 
mkl said:
Are Sieg players just pissed they didn't get the S-tier character that was in beta? You of all people should know that buffing a character relentlessly and potentially needlessly is not the answer.

The only things I see wrong with Sieg at this point are JF agA being slower, whiffing, and a some of his A+Bs in stances were removed. Yoshi got nerfed in several areas but most players are just learning to live with it and craft new tech with what they were given. Sieg will honestly be fine, especially damage wise, once the off-axis shit is fixed. If Namco was really kind they would fix agA as well and maybe tack on more of a perk for CE. But otherwise, separate what you think should happen and what actually objectively should happen in regards to the balance of a character and game.
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A few points:
  • He was not S-tier at any point, ever. I have no idea why this misconception ever happened.
  • JF agA has always been slower, and not really a point of contention for me - if it were faster than regular agA instead of slower, it'd be an i15 mid-to-long range meterless punisher, which would be completely stupid for him of all people to have. He is not a Greek, and "buffing a character relentlessly and potentially needlessly is not the answer".
  • Whiffing is a terrible issue for him. It also plagues most of the roster and not just him - I'm not sure if it's something that can be definitively "fixed", at least in every single case.
  • Not some, but all of his A+Bs were removed.
But again, this doesn't tell me why you think he's good, only why you think he isn't bad. You begin with the tired old rhetoric we have heard so many times from many people, some of whom have never played him at all, and some who have dropped him not even the week after they've picked him up. You're telling all of us, people who have put years behind this character, people who have been trying tirelessly to make him work, people who have known multiple iterations of him like the backs of our hands, that we're not working hard enough, that we're whining too much, that we have no idea what we're talking about. When you make those kind of statements, it is going to get our attention and we are going to call you out on it, because it means that you're either spreading misinformation, or you genuinely know something that we do not and we want you to share it with us so we can make this character work, which is something we desperately want above all else.

I also find the accusation of me being ignorant of design ironic when it comes from someone who wants to give Siegfried an i15 meterless JF mid-to-long range, 42 damage before Clean Hits and walls punish - we're not α. Block punish has never been Siegfried's design intent, it has always focused around spacing (agA, B6, 3aA, 22A, 6B) and stance roulette, with a minor emphasis on Guard Damage in the past two games. I've already covered why his stance roulette does not work to a coherent design intent at all in this post. Giving him buffs in stance that are related to their overall intent - for example, giving SSH A+B back to assist in whiff punishing from stance - is completely in line with design intent and not at all ignorant of the character and game as a whole - in short, it makes fucking sense.

EDIT: Also why would you ever listen to Synraii, and better yet why would you take his voice to be representative of all of our voices? EDITEDIT: Oh, wait, what he said there is basically everything I'm saying now minus people calling for a ban - they just wanted a completely stupid, unneeded nerf, which they got. I guess that vindicates Synraii completely. I should probably frame that thread.

And, to wit:

mkl said:
Never played beta
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This is one of the major problems I take with people saying he was broken in any way, shape or form. Watching pre-build videos as a Siegfried player, you can just see the character ignorance dripping off of everyone - it had nothing to do with the characters themselves, but the lack of knowledge about them. This has always been the case for Siegfried - alright early on, gets worse with age, like a shitty wine.
 
ChaosK said:
Fixed. I think the difference between sieg and yoshi, is that while both in the beginning give you the feeling that they seem worse at first glance but not bad at all, sieg is a char where you discover more and more flaws over time rather than finding new strengths. With yoshi its the other way around.
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It's really debatable. Some high level Yoshi players fled for other characters and most high level players all agree he is nowhere near as good as he was. You guys are viewing your character through a magnifying glass thinking that you'll play against a robot that can and will punish every flaw just like us Yoshi players. Super Turbo was never balanced again after that and tiers radically shifted throughout the game's lifespan. Some characters who were thought to be ridiculously awful (T.Hawk) ended up being pretty damn decent after people adjusted. It might take awhile but give it time. Way too early to completely write off your character.

Heaton said:
EDIT: Also why would you ever listen to Synraii, and better yet why would you take his voice to be representative of all of our voices?
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Point taken on that. I'm not a Sieg player, but I play Sieg competition in my area. I've labbed him multiple times but I haven't done it on the exhaustive level that an actual player of Sieg would do.
 
mkl said:
-Snip-
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The only top player that went to the forums to call Sieg OP was Ring and hes a blackhearted beast whose mouth spouts nothing but lies. Dont listen to him. Sieg players themselves were just really happy the character looked promising for once. If anyone else ended up calling him top tier it was either the result of hype or plain ignorance.

I'm sorry your character got hit by the hammer as well (actually Im really not, IF WE SUFFER SO MUST ALL OTHERS), but two wrongs dont make a right. Namco still dropped the ball on this one.

Panto still places well using Siegfried, but he also did that in 4, the character itself was still pretty terrible.
 
" SOULCALIBUR™ V title update including character re-balance and fan-requested gameplay tweaks is announced! SOULCALIBUR™ V will receive a worldwide free title update for PlayStation®3 and Xbox 360® on March 21, 2012. The title update will contain new online ranked game search optimization, gameplay tweaks and character balance adjustments for the entire roster based on player feedback. Full list of fixes will be revealed soon."

I have a strange feeling that we will regret this.
 
Soooo. Incoming patch... Are we gonna have Siegfried back oooooorrr are we stuck with Whiffried? Guize who no wat dere taking bout peeze halt mii undurstahnd wut to Xpekt.

EDIT: removed my "joke" because I seriously need to stay on topic.
 
So far i've heard we will still be stuck with whiffried, only worse than before (not the whiffing, just other nerfs).
But lets see. Saitoh said they will reveal patch notes on monday.
 
Solf said:
The Siegfried nerf is absurd. I'll never download this fucking patch, I don't play online, anyway. But heh, if nothing changes, I'll play Siegfried like a man to the very end. That's what character loyalty is about.
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Agree, I'll never pick some idiotic shit with shield and toothpick as a weapon only to mash BB, 1AA and 236B to win every match.
 
Solf said:
The Siegfried nerf is absurd. I'll never download this fucking patch, I don't play online, anyway. But heh, if nothing changes, I'll play Siegfried like a man to the very end. That's what character loyalty is about.
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Agreed. Sieg, Sophie and Taki have always been my favourites for character combined with style now I only have their styles with characters I'm not so keen on so I'm not dropping Sieg no matter how shit he is... at least hes better than Zwei.
 
I know i am repeating myself but nerfing sieg is the most fucked up bullshit ever. Even if they want to appeal to the casual audience couldnt they keep the nerfing to the top and high tier chars? Hell, most people agree that he is low tier and even the people that don't, think he is mid at best.
 
Agreed if people's are arguing between him being low and mid tier I think either way that says nerfing him is stupid logically you nerf top tiers and buff low not nerf low and leave high as is that logic makes your head hurt.
 
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