Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

Ciruxxx83

[04] Fighter
I still have lots of fun playing against him in legendary difficulty. It really puts your skills to the test, knowing that a single whiff or unsafe move can end up with your char pretty much KO'ed. I also use fights against inferno to check on my actual skills with any char before going online with him/her. If I can consistently beat the whole ladder + him with no retries, then I consider myself ready to try online with that char. Of course this is by no means any kind of formula, but it works for me.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
IKR? whats the point of inferno?
As a Night Terror stand-in, paying homage to SoulCalibur III. A waste of space as an unlockable character, to be sure, but that's what they were going for. Though there were people who wanted Night Terror to be unlockable back in the day, so I guess they got their wish.

I still think that Edge Master being unlockable (and encounterable) would have been a better use of the slot.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
As a Night Terror stand-in, paying homage to SoulCalibur III. A waste of space as an unlockable character, to be sure, but that's what they were going for. Though there were people who wanted Night Terror to be unlockable back in the day, so I guess they got their wish.

I still think that Edge Master being unlockable (and encounterable) would have been a better use of the slot.
I think the better parallel is Abyss (but then maybe that's what you meant to say) Abyss was the boss who was playable in SCIII (console edition, anyway) in most modes, but was clearly still an OP boss, whereas Night Terror was not selectable and only appeared rarely even as a boss, if certain conditions were met.

Post patch groh has been giving me a hard time. I win most of my matches but I lose about 75% of the matches with groh. That pressure...
I have to agree, Groh is out of control. I argue he's going to be the cause of more long-term grievance and complaint than 2B will, and probably more justifiably. The nerfs could be a simple as taking down his damage output, imo, but regardless, something needs to be done.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
I think the better parallel is Abyss (but then maybe that's what you meant to say) Abyss was the boss who was playable in SCIII (console edition, anyway) in most modes, but was clearly still an OP boss, whereas Night Terror was not selectable and only appeared rarely even as a boss, if certain conditions were met..
No, I meant Night Terror, since Inferno literally has Night Terror moves and is an enhanced Nightmare, just like Night Terror was in SoulCalibur III. Abyss was arguably worse than Zasalamel in some respects, and was far from OP, and was never banned from competitive play, to my knowledge. But people did want to be able to play as Night Terror, which you could, with Gameshark, but he was laughably OP, much like Inferno is in SoulCalibur VI.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
No, I meant Night Terror, since Inferno literally has Night Terror moves and is an enhanced Nightmare, just like Night Terror was in SoulCalibur III. Abyss was arguably worse than Zasalamel in some respects, and was far from OP, and was never banned from competitive play, to my knowledge. But people did want to be able to play as Night Terror, which you could, with Gameshark, but he was laughably OP, much like Inferno is in SoulCalibur VI.
No, I'm afraid you're remembering that wrong: Abyss was cut by the devs for Arcade Edition so never had a chance to appear in most tournament play, and to the small extent that there was small-forum tournament play on console prior to that, he typically was in fact banned from those events, in my (admittedly limited) experience of the scene at that time (like most players at the time, I was not exactly battering down the doors to see that version of the game played competitively, much as I like it for its content). Far from being an inferior iteration on Zasalamel's moveset, Abyss is basically a Zas with slightly increased stats for most of the moves they share (they mostly have extended hit ranges and/or augmented damage, and in some cases I think even decreased frames--I could be wrong about that last bit, but I just remember Abyss playing much faster; Zasalamel was actually a significantly slower character in III, in a relative sense, than he has been in subsequent iterations, though of course he slowed down in IV just a bit as a consequence of most everyone being a bit slower), a rapid stage-spanning projectile that takes 20% of your opponent's lifebar when it connects, and a handful of other powerful zone control moves. So you'd have to explain to me why you think he's weaker than the Zas or the SCIII:CE cast generally; I think most everyone agreed he was a playable boss and would have been broken enough to remove from tournament play had he been retained in a version of the game that was ever used widely for that purpose.

That said, I understand now what you meant with regard to Night Terror being more of a roided-up Nightmare, similarly to Inferno. But since Night Terror was never playable short of mods, I would say that Abyss's case is a much closer example to Inferno's in most practical comparisons: a boss that can be unlocked for limited modes and is noticeably OP, but has been wisely restricted in some way with regard to competitive play (Abyss being cut from SCIII:AE and Inferno being banned from online multiplayer in SCVI) by the developers themselves. What's more, while Inferno is clearly OP, he's nowhere near Night Terror OP. :) On a side note, those moves SCVI Inferno uses are not so much Night Terror moves that SCVI Inferno borrowed--rather, they are are mostly Soul Calibur I&II Inferno moves (which he has when fought as a boss) which Night Terror borrowed and which SCVI Inferno retains:
 
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Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
Theres a PDF file somewhere on this site. Don't know specifics off the top of my head but it just seems like I can't punish him now and his stance pressure is very hard for siegfried to deal with.
The patch notes are here; you're not imagining things--it's pretty much across the board buffs for him. Which is frickin' absurd because he was already solidly top tier. I honestly am surprised that anyone is finding time right now to complain about 2B's upsetting the status quo, while another character is verging on an outright broken sort of strong.
 

damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
The patch notes are here; you're not imagining things--it's pretty much across the board buffs for him. Which is frickin' absurd because he was already solidly top tier. I honestly am surprised that anyone is finding time right now to complain about 2B's upsetting the status quo, while another character is verging on an outright broken sort of strong.
Honestly 2b gives me trouble as well. She's so much faster in general, she can beat out all SCH options on block, her strings are so fast that they bypass RE most of the time. There is no ideal range for sieg either, except at the tip of the sword. up close she murders me and it's constant blocking. Because im glued to the block button, I get crushed. She's just a bad matchup for him but I have no idea where she places on the tiers.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
Honestly 2b gives me trouble as well. She's so much faster in general, she can beat out all SCH options on block, her strings are so fast that they bypass RE most of the time. There is no ideal range for sieg either, except at the tip of the sword. up close she murders me and it's constant blocking. Because im glued to the block button, I get crushed. She's just a bad matchup for him but I have no idea where she places on the tiers.
As someone who has been temporarily playing only her style for a few days, I'd say she is on the high side of things. Now, I'm a very old hand at SC and I did spend several hours in training mode before playing even a single match, but given she is completely new to me, neither my general experience or my decent amount of preparation can explain how much I have been crushing it with her. I hit a fourteen win streak straight out of the gate and I'm still maintaining a 90%+ win rate. Again, with a moveset that was completely foreign to me last week. I would have stopped long before now, but she's just such a blast to play, winning or losing. I'm trying to figure out how much of the imbalance is that she is genuinely OP and how much it is just that she keeps players scratching their heads for now, but in my impression is that even if it is more the latter she's still going to need at least a little nerfing.

If I could give one broad piece of advice that I keep kind of wanting my opponents to pick up on, it's that it's a waiting game. Her strings are, as you note, very fast, but they are mostly such a big problem because her mix-ups have her up and down in the air, backwards and forwards in an instant. Thing is, portions of many of those strings are fully automated, so when she doesn't connect, she leaves some massive openings. And virtually all of her mix-up/dash shenanigans only allow her to maintain frame advantage where they are bound up in vertical attacks. Basically, step is your friend. But beyond that, just don't get too eager during the onslaught. Wait it out until you see an obvious moment. I feel like half of my opponents right now are spending the first half of any round trying to gain the initiative and failing because 2B doesn't play quite like any other character and I've already learned to exploit her positioning and fake-out mechanics. So they get punished for the first 50-60% of their life bar and then are so turtled up afterwards, they miss chances to punish themselves. Basically she has a psychological dimension in being a little intimidating at this point, I would argue.

So in general, I'd suggest you instead accept that she is going to be all over you from the start of the round, be willing to soak up some blows, but keep an eye on your guard meter, because she can drain it quickly. If you can GI reliably, its even more useful than usual here. Eventually you should begin to get a sense of the breaks in her strings where you can either engineer a whiff or be prepared for one to happen regardless because you were blocking and the 2B player went with the mix-up that leaves her high and dry--usually literally with regard to the high part. I've beaten every other 2B I've played so far and all of them were on over-confident autopilot because they have to do so little to keep the pressure up normally. I know that's all a little vague, but I'm still feeling her out myself and haven't spent enough time on the other side to give more specific/concrete advice on particular match-ups.

Edit: Oh, heheh, my bad. You already said you were glued to block button. Well, just keep doing that and hang in there; once you know what to look for her punishable moments leave really big windows. I think it's just a matter of time before you can make it work with Siegfried, even at mid range.
 
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HackNslash

[07] Duelist
I’ve tried 2B for a few days now and I can confidently say she’s cheap AF. Lol

Most of the time it’s GG easy ring outs, especially against other 2B players who feel the need to complete a string.
40% of the time I don’t complete a string unless:

A. I know they’ll duck a high and there’s a mid variation.

B. I want to mess up their guard meter.
(The BB on the AA [A] variation does 19% Guard damage The whole blocked string does 27)

C. They don’t know the match up.

I have noticed Siegfried, Astaroth, Kilik, Mitsurugi and Tira struggle under pressure.

But Nightmare, Sophitia and Groh really give me trouble with 2B shenanigans.

Most of all her pressure feels a bit disproportionate as when the going gets tough I can beat on the opponents offence by making them block. Make the worry about their guard meter as well as a ring out and it’s all done in aid of avoiding massive damage.

Some people are decent enough to know the match up and can do pretty well but the cheap ring out potential is insane especially when coming out of an RE.
Or getting caught by a run counter with moves like 66A+B or 44(A)

Certain GIs have caught me, as that’s a mind game dependant on a players strategy.
Kilik’s 4B has messed me up post GI.

Once a decent player starts punishing properly her zoning usually throws them off enough to get a upper hand.

I don’t know any combos or tech with her I’ve just taken the piss by knowing how to punish.

I’m gonna get back to Sophitia and Zas though as 2B can be a little brain dead.

Merry Christmas everyone!!
 

MTK

[06] Combatant
Well I'm thinking the supers could be a little shorter with a little less damage. They wouldn't be the Get Out of Jail Free cards as they are now, neither would they be such a chore to watch, and they would fit better into combos albeit regulated by some level of scaling. Just not so they become utterly pointless.
Lol thats like literally a GOoJ card hell I even used it like that. I hate that it takes away a lot from certain characters. I also hate when someone definitely nightmare user spam RE and use the CE like crazy like wtf. Seriously though I did complain about months ago with people on here saying its just a few seconds. SC 2 & 3 are the best without the interruptions of RE and CE. To add RE would be better without it or without the drama part, CE would be better if its only usable in a certain situation like low health bar on your final round. SC would be better without the drama as well. Also tired of worrying about the ring outs, its like we end from one side to the other quick. Also how the characters get up there anyways with no stairs, what teleportation doesn't make sense.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
But Nightmare, Sophitia and Groh really give me trouble with 2B
Yup, my experience exactly. Nightmare in particular has a way of interrupting 2B's flow and shutting her down; I've eaten a fair few well-timed soul waves in those matchups. Actually, all of his :A::+::B: repertoire is pretty good at fending off her aggro rushes and giving a decent chance at gettign ahead of her no matter which of several mix-ups she goes for. And meanwhile Groh just beats her to the punch to begin with and then chains into stupid easy combos for big damage. But that's just who Namco have decided he's gonna be now--it's not particularly 2B specific.

I honestly don't think 2B is cheap, per se, at least not at mid-level play and higher. Yeah, its a little cheesy that there are literally three different ways she can maneuver someone off the edge of the ring with a single single button and one 1/4th of the analog range, but most players can fend against that easily enough. It reminds me a bit of Kilik and Sophitia's :4::(4)::A:.:A: variations; everybody has to go through learning how to defend against those reliably when they first encounter them early in their SC experience--it's just not something that is immediately intuitive. But eventually it becomes second nature. I think some of 2B's high low pressure, which she relies on heavily, is not substantially different from that--maybe a little faster. But honestly, much of what makes her easy for scrubs to spam at low level play makes her vulnerable at higher level play. Specifically, the ease with which her strings are initiated (and to a degree, chained) is accomplished in part by some portions of the string being non-cancelable and requiring a two or three stroke commitment. So when you come charging in with her, you are quickly forced to chose between diminishing branches of limited options (if you want to keep the pressure on anyway, especially), and then two options and then finally one path. The dash/back-dash is a kind of compromise that lets you back out of a dead-end avenue, specifically because you otherwise would get locked into an easily punishable set of a few patterns. Using that option is where a good 2B players differentiates themselves from the person just leaning on those gimme combos/:B: abuse. Because if you overcommit too often, your opponent will find opportunities to punish you while you are locked into a quintillion frame animation. Playing mind games and faking out your opponent one time so they hopefully lean in the next is like a whole game unto itself, one which can reward players who really master it and get deep into the pattern mix-ups/cancel/mix-ups such that you always leave your opponent guessing (or, just lead them completely by the nose), but which can also be easily punished in high level play if you fail to secure that advantage. I think that's why I've been enjoying her so much; she reminds me of Amy in that respect--to execute them at peak form, you have to do some degree of baiting and making your enemy complicit in their own downfall. That's an angle on play which I've really missed and makes me even more eager to get Amy herself back.

None of which is to say that 2B's not top tier--she definitely is. But every day I face a few more players who are obviously clued in to her gimmicks. And if she's a bit of a masher's delight at lower level play, I can't really be bothered to be too concerned about that--same as with a third of this roster who can be similarly described. She does need some nerfing, I reckon, but I hope it comes in the form of just reducing her damage to make her have to work a little harder/longer with the same tools, though this seems to be an approach the devs have not used much so far in their balances--I hope they don't alter the reliability of connecting with her established strings as I feel that would be an over-correction in this instance.

...does any of that make sense to anyone? I find her a little difficult to describe in normal SC terms.
 

Ukkesh

[09] Warrior
2B feels like RE bait to me. Her laser projectiles just are free meter I found. The pressure is really annoying sometimes, I end up playing the waiting game more often than not.

Merry X-mas!
 

Gneisenau

[04] Fighter
So overall Tira is considered by many Weak in the game? Oh wow for me honestly she one of the hardest character to fight LOL
I think they just don't understand her and is unappreciated her play style. She is difficult to fight against and difficult to learn, too. Then again what do we know what others think when saying such things.