masterROBOMAN
[11] Champion
Wait... @Rusted_Blade
Did you played SCIII:AE?! Man, i'm jealous!
Did you played SCIII:AE?! Man, i'm jealous!
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
- Start date
DanteSC3
[14] Master
@Rusted Blade About Vader, I don’t think it’s really that deep. Vader was always slow and powerful, even in the original trilogy, so they were keeping true to that ideal. To some extent, so was Luke, but he was still notably more agile than the rest, but keep in mind he was trained by old man Obi-Wan, so he wasn’t ever trained in the ways of the hyper flippy super dexterity style of the prequels and beyond.
But I digress, the point I was originally after was that it was basically a mirror of how he fought in the prologue of The Force Unleashed, which is why SoulCalibur IV had the Star Wars characters to begin with, as a cross-promotional event. And I will never get over the disappointment that was my playing through The Force Unleashed and finding out that Yoda is nowhere to be seen, yet there was an incredibly competent green lightsaber user in Rahm Kota who could have been a blast to play in SoulCalibur IV, but no, we got the little green guy for no reason, just to troll us, I guess. They should have done Luke instead, if they were going for someone recognizable but who wasn’t in The Force Unleashed. Or I would have even taken Qui-Gon, if it had to be someone from the prequels era. Not Yoda...
But I digress, the point I was originally after was that it was basically a mirror of how he fought in the prologue of The Force Unleashed, which is why SoulCalibur IV had the Star Wars characters to begin with, as a cross-promotional event. And I will never get over the disappointment that was my playing through The Force Unleashed and finding out that Yoda is nowhere to be seen, yet there was an incredibly competent green lightsaber user in Rahm Kota who could have been a blast to play in SoulCalibur IV, but no, we got the little green guy for no reason, just to troll us, I guess. They should have done Luke instead, if they were going for someone recognizable but who wasn’t in The Force Unleashed. Or I would have even taken Qui-Gon, if it had to be someone from the prequels era. Not Yoda...
But he can’t be Z.W.E.I. if he dies... at least, not yet. He’s gotta be put up for execution for daring to accompany his beloved Amy in the next part of the story, then when he dies he’ll revive as Grøh to fit the story proper.
kyrt
whatever
The zwei = groh theory gets weaker and weaker the more you look into it. It's not impossible but there are a number of things which make it unlikely. Honestly I think if Ein turns out to be Hilde's father then Hilde's story line might be the first instance we see any hint of him but chances are we won't see him until next game. (if ever)
Zwei is not a character I cared for the design of at all so if they radically change it I'd be perfectly fine with that,
Zwei is not a character I cared for the design of at all so if they radically change it I'd be perfectly fine with that,
Crash X
[14] Master
@kyrt Azwel is confirmed alive through the Soul Chronicle, even after being defeated in Libra of Soul. Groh is more or less an anomaly. Though I would imagine that he’s going to return in some form or another. Either as a lone man who’s out to complete his mission of killing Azwel without Aval backing him up (and trying to control his malfested side), or being resurrected by Azwel himself or through his malfestation after the “evil” ending of LoS.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
I would argue the real possibility that Grøh travels with Amy is a pretty good inkling for the theory, personally. It establishes them as traveling partners for the future of Viola and Z.W.E.I., gives Raphael a motive to want him dead (which is what awakens E.I.N.), and Azwel’s experimentations with Grøh’s unique “patient zero” status as the sole survivor of the tests makes him special.
To be clear, I’m not not not not not saying that this is true factual representation of events, it’s just the way I see it, my personal interpretation. If Hilde’s father is E.I.N., for whatever reason, it could potentially throw a sword into the theory, but I don’t really think that’s going to happen. Yes, Wolfkrone, wolves, yeah, but the problem with Grøh is that if he doesn’t have any purpose moving forward, he becomes as irrelevant as Setsuka as far as the story is concerned, and they seem to be wanting everyone to be important and have an established role in the narrative.
So until proven otherwise, I’ll keep believing.
Edit: Rewording my phrasing for clarity.
To be clear, I’m not not not not not saying that this is true factual representation of events, it’s just the way I see it, my personal interpretation. If Hilde’s father is E.I.N., for whatever reason, it could potentially throw a sword into the theory, but I don’t really think that’s going to happen. Yes, Wolfkrone, wolves, yeah, but the problem with Grøh is that if he doesn’t have any purpose moving forward, he becomes as irrelevant as Setsuka as far as the story is concerned, and they seem to be wanting everyone to be important and have an established role in the narrative.
So until proven otherwise, I’ll keep believing.
Edit: Rewording my phrasing for clarity.
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Silver-wind
[05] Battler
I am for Groh and Zwei being related somehow : ). I hope they are brothers, although being the same person is interesting too. But, they do seem to have very different personalities. Groh seems quite stoic while Zwei was laid back.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
The perfect example, I concur. :)
I should have known you;d hit upon that nit-pick ( :P ), which yes, I did consider when I wrote that. But you already covered my response: everyone was slow in the orig trig. And yeah, we can sloppily ret-con for the sake of ignoring George Lucas' sloppy tonal continuity, but no thanks, let's call a spade for a spade: he got new toys and went haywire and as with virtually all artistic decisions during the prequels, was surrounded only by fawning yes men and thus none of it got filtered.
But I digress as well: the point is, Vader stayed slow even in the post-hyper-flippity revolution, although notably the most recent films have obviously tried to scale that back a bit into something between the style of the first trilogy and the prequels, at least to my eye. The Vader scene posted by @masterROBOMAN is well within that vein and actually I think it's a great little sequence from an action choreography / visual storytelling perspective: that film had its flaws and I understand the complaints that about what scene meant in terms of continuity and tonality in the larger movie, and that maybe that fanboy moment wasn't worth it, but I think it indisputably does what that scene is asked to do beautifully. :)
Ah, but you forget a critical detail of that promotion, my young padiwan: Soulcalibur IV came out significantly in advance of The Force Unleashed. There was a huge marketing blitz for that game well ahead of its release, to sell it as the defining action game of the generation. Though, now that you mention that prologue sequence, there was video of it some time before The Force Unleashed was released. How far ahead, I cannot remember, and whether it featured the boss sequence / cinematics with Vader at the end, I cannot recall. I'd have to check the dates, but its at least a possibility they had that much to work with to inform their moveset. But then...his moveset sure doesn't look like it does in Force Unleashed in any of the battle sequences, so i doubt they had much foreknowledge. Remember, work on Vader had to have started long before the ultimate release of either game.
I'll never forget my disappointment when playing The Force Unleashed of the experience that was The Force Unleashed. I mean, I guess it was a marginally acceptable action-adventure set-piece god fantasy sci-fi beat 'em up. I managed to get through all of it twice on the Wii's crummy controls for a game of that sort, so it must have been alright, surely? But after the build up they gave it...what a let down. The little Jedi fighter was a nice little feature though! Not exactly a tight fighter, but something you could play with anyone and have fun.
I guess Rahm Kota would have been fine from a gameplay perspective, but I don't think Project soul would have been happy with that arrangment: the idea with these characters is to generate cross promotion with recognizable faces people are already invested in. The Apprentice was an obvious exception because he was the protagonist of the game EA and LucasArts wanted to promote, and the raison d'etre for the collaboration to begin with. But Rahm Kota? I played that game twice on the Wii and years later again on Xbox, and I barely remember who that dude is. he was never going to cut.
Using either of those alternatives requires that they negotiate with the actors whose image rights they are using, or at least rely on previously established contractual arrangements. Either way, its an extra cost, plus lawyer hours. Better to go with characters who are, more or less in their entirety, your property. Hence Starkiller, Darth Vader, and Yoda.
The thing about Yoda is, he is absolutely a broken character, but other than at the button-masher level, he is broken to the disadvantage of those who use him. Sure, the height thing is obnoxious when it comes to having to no recourse to throws (which were so much more viable in general in that game than they have been in any game since) and his ability to caulk up some combos. But it was so easy to rinse and repeat him with certain moves. He was not safe, was severely out-ranged by just about anyone else, and was not that fast to boot. So as an experiment, meh, I think he's alright. I guess I can understand why some people who bought him on PS3 (or had to buy Vader on XBOX because they got Yoda for free) were annoyed, but for the people on PS3...you kinda knew what you were getting from playing against him. So I think of him as a kind of bonus they didn't have to add. More or less.
I want to believe in your crazy fangirl theory, Dante, I really do. Because I don't ever want a game with both of those anime-emo-bro, ridiculous weapon / super-sayan douches in it. Maybe having one or the other is a certainty for the next few games, but at no point should both be allowed to exist concurrently. People will get herpes in their eyes just from watching any fight with both of them in it. And narratively, there's not enough blue pigment in the 18th century to supply them both of enough hair dye.But he can’t be Z.W.E.I. if he dies... at least, not yet. He’s gotta be put up for execution for daring to accompany his beloved Amy in the next part of the story, then when he dies he’ll revive as Grøh to fit the story proper.
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artard4321
[12] Conqueror
I honestly love all three games but Dragon Ball FighterZ kinda fell off for me with all that Goku DLC. I wanted to see a legit Dragon Ball fighting game for a very long time too. I'm also a longtime Tekken fan and was a Tekken fan before I even became a SoulCalibur fan! Tekken 7 is truly an amazing game but I ended up voting for SoulCalibur VI since I just like the SoulCalibur gameplay more and the SoulCalibur franchise deserves a lot more recognition. Tekken 7 already has all the budget it needs.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Wow, those are truly phenomenal stretches of of all Soulcalibur support comments. Of course, Soulcalibur is the more recently released game, and I'm sure this is just another case of Namco releasing a poll more for promotional than market research purposes (get the different sides energized and debating and thus engaged/invested), but the sheer volume of response in support of Soulcalibur VI is telling in itself. I wonder how it is going to translate into sales this holiday season and this coming year. I'm starting to feel like its no longer tentative: Soulcalibur is back in the saddle!
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Spanky
[13] Hero
I really love the way you verbally shit on these two. :) You have a way with words, my friend!
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Hah! Dankeschön. ;)
Crash X
[14] Master
Don’t forget about Yoda having the weakest soul gauge/guard meter in the game. So if you ever went against Ivy or Voldo in that game as Yoda, good luck getting your guard meter back, let alone keeping it due to their insane guard damage in comparison to the rest of the cast.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
@Rusted Blade About Vader, fair enough points. I don't really have much else to add. It's somewhere amidst all the points you raised and mine.
I mean, if you played it on Wii, that might have been part of the problem. I played it on Xbox 360, and I enjoyed it for the most part. Was it the action game of the decade that they hyped it up to be? No. But I enjoyed it for what it added to the story, too bad it's scrap now... but to hell with the Sith Master difficulty, a battalion of stormtroopers shouldn't ever be able to take down a Jedi/Sith. I don't care how stupid Order 66 was. It's still ridiculous and it just encouraged running through the stages instead of dealing with the tedium. The Xbox 360 version didn't get the duel mode, though, so I don't know anything about that, really.
I know and I agree that Kota is an unknown and wouldn't have had the recognition, I just can't wrap my head around why they went with Yoda. It didn't make any sense back then, and it still doesn't make any sense right now. Surely, someone responsible for the promo had to know whether or not Yoda was going to appear in The Force Unleashed, right? Or was he cut content that didn't make it in? It's bizarre. But if anything could be used as a counter, Kota was the boss and heavily featured in the demo for The Force Unleashed, which if memory serves, did come out around the time that SoulCalibur IV did.
But why did they have rights to Yoda? I guess that's a missing piece of my personal puzzle.
The issue is that he's just tedious, and brough back memories of Gon from Tekken 3. Those were... not pleasant times. But as an Xbox 360 player, yes, I had to buy Vader, and I liked Vader a lot more than Yoda, and I theoretically felt bad for people buying Yoda on PS3, not knowing the dumbster fire they were in for, or the intense buyer's remorse, at the very least. Going so far as to not be able to Critical Finish him for maximum satisfaction or being able to grab him or anything that you might want to do, totally breaking the mechanics of play, it just wasn't a good idea all-around.
SoulCalibur VII is prime set for having Amy, Viola, Grøh, and Z.W.E.I., all at the same time, and it could be wonderful. If only to see your reaction. :p~
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Well they (meaning LucasArts, or rather parent company LucasFilms) own the rights to the other characters as well as Yoda. But any time you use an actual actor's image as the basis for a portrayal of a character (as with Luke or Qui-Gon), you also need to pay them for the use of their image rights (or else you need to have at least secured the use of those rights in previous contract: but even if you do have a set deal in place, you're still probably paying them additional fees and at a minimum, the new licensing contract process is more complex). But you still own the character itself as an intellectual property matter, and can stop anyone else from using it (whether with the original actor's image or not). However, with a character like Yoda, the company (or other IP holder) owns everything: they own the character as an abstract concept, and because no actor ever lent his or her physical likeness to the character, they don't have that extra party to worry about satisfying.
Plenty more unflattering My Chemical Romance comparisons, for one. ;)
Crash X
[14] Master
Since we’re on the topic of Star Wars..I’d to see Namco create a Star Wars fighting game operating under the Soulcalibur fighting system. You’ve got the movesets for it already for Vader, Yoda, and Starkiller.
Sadly, it’s probably never going to happen with EA’s grubby paws on the contract with Disney to create Star Wars games...with rather mixed results.
Sadly, it’s probably never going to happen with EA’s grubby paws on the contract with Disney to create Star Wars games...with rather mixed results.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
Different time/world we were living in, but we did get a Star Wars fighting game in the SoulBlade fighting system (give or take) back on PS1, which was fun and underappreciated. Not sure how well it would hold up nowadays, but I liked it a lot way back when! Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi is its name.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Yup, I don't see that stranglehold easing any time soon; Disney likes to partner with proven money makers, and for all the legitimate complaints consumers may have about that company, there's no denying that's EA.
@DanteSC3 I stand corrected: that grounding force push with a red glowing aura that Vader has in SCIV (no recollection of what it is named) is also present in SW:TFU, as it turns out. That's far too specific a design (even if its not 100% identical) to be coincidence. Apparently the SCIV team most have had some access the moveset ahead of time. I guess that makes sense in retrospect: the moveset of 'The Apprentice' in SCIV is certainly closely based on Starkiller's. It's also standard operating procedure when Project Soul are adapting a character, as far as I can tell: I remember on separate occasions public statements by devs from both the Assassin's Creed and Witcher franchises that when Ezio and Geralt were adapted respectively, the devs form the originating teams were asked a bazillion questions by Project Soul regarding the design and nature of the motion of the character. They clearly still took more liberties with Vader though: he's more of pastiche of his previous movie and game appearances, with the PS twist. Which makes sense: his animations and movement are just so limited and kind of stilted in The Force Unleashed.
LisaK
[14] Master
The most accurate reaction to Hilde trailer
artard4321
[12] Conqueror
Took me a while to figure out who the character Hwang was on top of. Not the same without the red hair lol.
- Moderator
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WuHT
Premium Moderator
Look we're not trying to fulfill a word count requirement for a paper here
Lastly I didn't spend 6 years in college studying critical feminist theory so I don't care about the other argument that you keep including in your replies to me. If its not soul calibur related then it doesn't belong here.
No. I only wanted to address what I quoted. You're getting mixed up because you're in too many conversations with different people and now you're expecting me to understand your message's context when you're concurrently also talking to other people.
Not a problem. These ones you posted (ALL my issues with you were these 2 comments, which I repeated in my replies to you)
This is not an innocent statement.
I recommend you measure your words more carefully then. We know from the NLPS book that several women designers played a key role in the character design and your quotes disregarded their contributions. I didn't want anyone else making the same mistake and disrespect the project soul team.
Lastly I didn't spend 6 years in college studying critical feminist theory so I don't care about the other argument that you keep including in your replies to me. If its not soul calibur related then it doesn't belong here.
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