Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

[Rusted Blade]

These are characters that are being sold alongside other mainstream SC characters that are just there. They don’t get a Soul Chronicle or anything.

Eh, so what? I personally think the decision to dedicate as much manpower as has been set aside for the soul chronicles represents a monumentally bad decision when viewed from a purely design perspective. We're talking about cringe-inducingly bad pop fantasy story here, told through the medium of a lazy, cut-rate visual novel format featuring talking heads spouting tin-eared dialogue that is itself a combination of hamfisted melodrama and outright lore gobbledygook--all with voice acting that bounces between some of the most camp performances (in a very un-self-aware, not entertaining way) and completely flat alternatives. That last part is particularly impressive given there is actually some decent voice talent in the cast--it just goes to show how bad the direction of this aspect of the product really is.

It's a pretty classic case of quantity over quality and I don't see how more of it really improves the experience, and carrying it into the continuing support as such a prominent component of the season passes is such a bad priority: if not for these extra soul chronicle chapters (which tend to be even longer than those in the core game), we might have two extra characters per season, at the same price, and/or many additional CaS and stage assets, and/or who knows what extra content. It's just such a monumental waste. Again, as an abstract matter, that is. In practical terms, I entirely understand why it is included: as cringy as I find this story and as inept as I find the presentation, apparently there are a lot of people who eat it up with a spoon. And not just among the casuals--I know the story content has its defenders among the longterm franchise devotees as well.

So I get why it's included. But if we're talking about design choices in terms of what they bring to game in terms of inherent value, I just don't favour the argument that characters without soul chronicles are a major issue: I'd trade every single soul chronicle in SCVI for one extra roster character, their moveset, their CaS items and an extra stage. In a friggin' heartbeat I would take that trade and scream "No takesie-backsies!" while running out the door.

People have been requesting for their mains to come back for years and the 2B and Haohmaru slots could have easily gone to another SC character. That way we would have had a full house. Honestly, just one to two guests per game is good enough, otherwise everything just becomes MK with it’s guests.

Yeah, but that's just not the way it works. I'm not certain you were entirely following what I think Mac was saying. He's not arguing just that the guests are bringing something of inherent value to the game (though they are also doing that): he is saying that there actually more regular roster characters in the game because of the guest characters and the extra sales they generate, sales that help buoy continuing support and make a series of Seaon Passes more viable and attractive to Namco. And he's just absolutely right about that: Namco doesn't make the decision to go through the trouble of hammering out license agreements for these guests to humour the artistic whims of their development staff--they do it because their market research makes them relatively certain this will pull in enough extra purchases to make the season passes a more viable product. More season passes greenlit=more regular cast characters as well.

In other words, fans who complain about "guests taking spots from main cast/legacy characters" are just not understanding the reality of the marketplace mechanics and as a consequence are allowing themselves to fall into a false dichotomy, to the extent they perceive the situation as a zero-sum competition between two options. The reality is that the guest characters are doing more than their fair share in contributing to the company's decision to continue support into an additional season, and that is good news for filling out the regular roster as well. It is by no means a coincidence that this game has now become the franchise game with the largest number of fully-developed main roster styles/returning legacy characters and is also simultaneously the game with the most guests: the two go hand-in-hand and the guests are increasing the number of legacy character returns, not replacing such characters.

 

[WuHT]

The reality is that the guest characters are doing more than their fair share in contributing to the company's decision to continue support into an additional season, and that is good news for filling out the regular roster as well.

Since i'm not privy to how Namco and its business partners treat the ownership of guest character's movesets, the only thing that doesn't add up to me is why they don't shamelessly re-purpose attack animations for newer characters that would stay in the series.

We sort of see that with SC5 Aeon inheriting some of SCBD Kratos (and some people have mentioned some of SC2 Spawn) but I would have expected this to be more wide spread.

I sort of understand why Namco doesn't recycle texture/meshes of the guest character's clothing (since most of them seem out of place anyways) but for moveset purposes it just seems like a lot of work saved if they recycled some of the animations.

 

[Rusted Blade]

Since i'm not privy to how Namco and its business partners treat the ownership of guest character's movesets, the only thing that doesn't add up to me is why they don't shamelessly re-purpose attack animations for newer characters that would stay in the series.

We sort of see that with SC5 Aeon inheriting some of SCBD Kratos (and some people have mentioned some of SC2 Spawn) but I would have expected this to be more wide spread.

I sort of understand why Namco doesn't recycle texture/meshes of the guest character's clothing (since most of them seem out of place anyways) but for moveset purposes it just seems like a lot of work saved if they recycled some of the animations.

Yeah, you have a point there. I suppose it might have something to do with the fact that the movesets are somewhat (in at least a superficial sense) based upon the visual and gameplay design of the guests in their games of origin, and PS don't want to step on the toes of the companies they license those characters from by keeping the animations thereafter. This theory is somewhat called into question by what happened with Kratos and Aeon, but SCV is an off-brand exception in many respects, and it's entirely possible this is just one of those things that happened under Daishi's direction that would not happen with another Project Soul lead developer. Not for nothing, but SCV was short on playable movesets as is, and I'm pretty sure I recall that Daishi took the lead on the development of numerous of the SC:BD characters: its possible Kratos was among them and he just didn't like the idea of that work going to waste on the handheld entry that very little of the fanbase played.

On a side note, PS may not be in the habit of preserving the movesets of the guests very much, but there are dozens Tekken animations that have found their way into various SoulCal games over the years.

 

[sytus]

Worth noting that a lot of the moves Kratos has in Broken Destiny are actually Project Soul originals, so I think people confuse this with the idea that some kind of licensing loophole was used.

 

[weshookhands]

Worth noting that a lot of the moves Kratos has in Broken Destiny are actually Project Soul originals, so I think people confuse this with the idea that some kind of licensing loophole was used.

Also, I remember a video posted here comparing Azwel's moveset animations to a lot of different characters, including guests. So there seems to be at least a bit of recycling.

EDIT: found it:

 

[WuHT]

I half expect SC7 Mitsurugi to re-appropriate some of Haoh's animations (whether Mitsurugi recognizes him in cannon as a tribute is unknown)

However, I'm waiting for a Geralt/Link hybrid European bastard sword wielder in SC7.

 

[Soul]

I wonder how different Taki would've been if she got the DLC treatment. I think she would have the Talisman mechanic instead of Hwang lol.

 

[sytus]

I half expect SC7 Mitsurugi to re-appropriate some of Haoh's animations (whether Mitsurugi recognizes him in cannon as a tribute is unknown)

I'm hoping that we have the option to buy these guest characters again in a future Calibur game. I don't what the series to be bogged down with guests, but the ones in SC6 are the best the series has produced that it would be a shame to keep them confined in one game.

 

[SAPirata]

However, I'm waiting for a Geralt/Link hybrid European bastard sword wielder in SC7.

OMG this would be too sick.

 

[Angrel-San]

Did you finish the Hwang Soul Chronicle and the Nightmare, Groh and Mitsurugi Side Stories?

Groh.

I didn't finish his side story.

Got everything. Thank you!!!

 

[FleshMasher]

I wonder how different Taki would've been if she got the DLC treatment. I think she would have the Talisman mechanic instead of Hwang lol.

You mean her having talismans instead of him, instead of now him having talismans as well as Taki?

 

[WuHT]

Here we go! A huge collection of all the artwork in SC6 (dialogue portraits, story backgrounds, character select artwork, and museum artwork): https://mega.nz/file/BFcSkZiL#NF7hMmhwEQa5MY-YHh6foqpTz9qGNsVPNM-cOlC4-xg

I don't recall seeing this in game:
The other members of the 12:
Calvin / Archibald / Mayhem

There's a variant cross pattée symbol for each of these members built into their weapons similar to Groh

 

[genghis_chan]

I don't recall seeing this in game:
The other members of the 12:
Calvin / Archibald / Mayhem

View attachment 86613

There's a variant cross pattée symbol for each of these members built into their weapons

the dude in the middle reminds me of Reinhard from OW

 

[RyujiSakamoto]

I'm glad they are putting in an effort storywise. It gives people something to talk about besides customization and framedata, there will always be room for improvement of course. But I am so glad they aren't just dumping the characters on us without any story whatsoever, as that just makes the characters feel disconnected in a sense. The storylines at least give me a flavor for the characters beyond their limited in combat dialogue (and believe me SC6 has a really small pool of pre/post combat lines)

 

[sytus]

I've already shitposted about the guy in the middle, it's Rock's new design.

 

[WuHT]

In all honesty they seem like potential NPCs using seig/asta/cass movesets. Some of the clothing parts and Calvin's beard could have some potential.
In terms of moveset they seem less unique compared to Dampierre's crew of thieves.

 

[artard4321]

Since i'm not privy to how Namco and its business partners treat the ownership of guest character's movesets, the only thing that doesn't add up to me is why they don't shamelessly re-purpose attack animations for newer characters that would stay in the series.

We sort of see that with SC5 Aeon inheriting some of SCBD Kratos (and some people have mentioned some of SC2 Spawn) but I would have expected this to be more wide spread.

I sort of understand why Namco doesn't recycle texture/meshes of the guest character's clothing (since most of them seem out of place anyways) but for moveset purposes it just seems like a lot of work saved if they recycled some of the animations.

I'm not sure about how Bandai Namco handled guest characters in past games but if I recall correctly, CD Projekt Red actually sent assets to Project Soul to make Geralt's depiction in SOULCALIBUR VI as authentic and close to the source material as possible. Though I'm sure that Bandai Namco made their own assets and animations for Geralt, the fact that they used assets sent to them by CD Projekt Red as a point of reference would make recycling Geralt's moveset very disrespectful and could potentially lead to some legal disputes. Same applies to 2B if we're assuming that Square Enix and PlatinumGames sent assets to Project Soul.

However, I think the moves that Bandai Namco made up on their own like the "filler" moves given to complete a 2D character like Haohmaru should be fair game for recycling.

 

[WuHT]

I'm not sure about how Bandai Namco handled guest characters in past games but if I recall correctly, CD Projekt Red actually sent assets to Project Soul to make Geralt's depiction in SOULCALIBUR VI as authentic and close to the source material as possible. Though I'm sure that Bandai Namco made their own assets and animations for Geralt, the fact that they used assets sent to them by CD Projekt Red as a point of reference would make recycling Geralt's moveset very disrespectful and could potentially lead to some legal disputes. Same applies to 2B if we're assuming that Square Enix and PlatinumGames sent assets to Project Soul.

However, I think the moves that Bandai Namco made up on their own like the "filler" moves given to complete a 2D character like Haohmaru should be fair game for recycling.

I haven't played Witcher 3, but for those who did : Are Geralt's SC6 attack animations straight rips of the atatcks in Witcher 3 (rigged skeleton) I'm thinking Project Soul (which has a history of having FANTASTIC in-game animators) probably made most of the animations from scratch.

 

[Fredfredburger]

I've already shitposted about the guy in the middle, it's Rock's new design.

He even has a gigantic mace. Maybe, they are going to with reimagined Berserker angle for his story, just like the Hwang and Assassin redesign in SC6.

 

[Rusted Blade]

I'm not sure about how Bandai Namco handled guest characters in past games but if I recall correctly, CD Projekt Red actually sent assets to Project Soul to make Geralt's depiction in SOULCALIBUR VI as authentic and close to the source material as possible. Though I'm sure that Bandai Namco made their own assets and animations for Geralt, the fact that they used assets sent to them by CD Projekt Red as a point of reference would make recycling Geralt's moveset very disrespectful and could potentially lead to some legal disputes. Same applies to 2B if we're assuming that Square Enix and PlatinumGames sent assets to Project Soul.

However, I think the moves that Bandai Namco made up on their own like the "filler" moves given to complete a 2D character like Haohmaru should be fair game for recycling.

I haven't played Witcher 3, but for those who did : Are Geralt's SC6 attack animations straight rips of the atatcks in Witcher 3 (rigged skeleton) I'm thinking Project Soul (which has a history of having FANTASTIC in-game animators) probably made most of the animations from scratch.

Yes, I recall watching the same interview with the CD Projekt Red personell (it was in one of those Namco publisher diaries in the months immediately before SCVI was released), and as I recall there was no exact mention of sharing assets (which, given the different engines and animation software suites involved, wouldn't necessarily be a super practical approach). Rather, as I recall, they mentioned that Project Soul 'consulted' with them extensively about how to render Geralt and his quality of movement. I'm sure this is probably their established methodology for guests characters at this point.

Anyway, speaking more directly the issues involved with retaining animations produced for a guest in future characters, the issues are probably not legal so much as maintaining a positive relationship and reputation with partners they license content from: it would not be impossible to include provisions in a contract governing the use of specific assets, but I think they are unlikely. Meanwhile, there are no real intellectual property rights that really protect this kind of content: there are rights that can attach to a character as an abstract concept, and others which attach the particular visual representations, but none (to my knowledge) which would attach to particular animation frames or similar assets. Which is interesting, because you actually can copyright quality of movement in other contexts: you can copyright dance choreography or of course all manner of performances in films and other fixed visual media.

But the game industry has, up until fairly recently, remained free of much progress in allowing non-traditional forms of media or design elements to receive new forms of IP protection particular to such design features. This is arguably for the better in terms of innovation, collaboration and free experimentation in the industry, but that's a discussion for another day: point is, I doubt there would be much traction if another company tried to sue Namco over taking the quality of movement of one guest to use with another character in a later game. And even if there were such a suit, it would probably be brought in terms of contractual agreements, not IP law.

That said, if you made a habit of brazenly doing this to the degree that it honestly felt like you were trying to retain someone else's character in a game without licensing them a second time, and you made a habit of doing this repeatedly, you'd probably find that other companies were no longer interested in entering into those arrangements with you. And since the advantage of licensed characters is mostly in their brand appeal, it's not worth souring business relationships and getting a bad for the studio within the industry just to retain a moveset. I'm pretty sure it is that concern, and less so legal qualms, that stays their hand in most such cases, and keeps both guests and most of their moveset sequestered to the game they are licensed for.

Of course, there is the Kratos/Aeon exception, but who can explain half of what was going on in SCV, without just falling back on the fact that it was a clusterfuck of rushed, complicated development cycle, with many, many questionable decisions. And as someone pointed out above, Kratos in SC:BD is actually less faithful to his GoW moveset than most guests are to their movesets in their original games, so Daiishi and crew might have felt more possessive of the moves they generated for him in SC:BD, enough to want to recycle them for Aeon in SCV. And anyway, only a portion of Aeon's moves come from Kratos--albeit a significant portion.