Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

Klimat said:
Here is a personal anecdote: I'm a C5 Nightmare and I've just played a match vs Legendary AI Groh as Nightmare. I won 3-1.
Then I did the opposite and played as Groh vs Legendary AI Nightmare. That was like my 3rd time ever playing Groh not counting the story mode. I don't know any of Groh's advanced stuff at all. I won 3-2 no problem.
Nightmare is far from being the best character, he's mid tier at best, his only advantages are damage and ease of use, his speed is below average, his range is average, his CE is garbage, his Soul Charge is nothing special, his ring out game just got cut in half in the latest patch. Yet somehow devs are planning to nerf him to hell even further while buffing real overpowered characters like Mi-na. Seriously, what the hell?
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Don’t forget that any of his armor/revenge attacks get shut down by lows. Basically stopping him from entering a premature soul charge.

EDIT: And his frame data is garbage too. Lacks a reliable i12 and i14 move.
 
You know sometimes i got heavy offense from the fast characters and i forgot that i can use reversal edge lol 2 month later and it's still happening lol
 
RagingGhost said:
And RE has it's own lot of risks, since if you guess wrong, you're back to square one.
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Sure thing, you should not make it obvious of course as usual lol, but RE can be really helpful especially for a character like Ivy i think, cause she don't have many fast moves options to stop the pressure.
 
UUGUI said:
So let me get this straight: Nightmare/Siegfried 's flapjack ring out gets nerfed while ivy can still ring out with 2 A+G that is a much safer move?

What a load of bullshit.
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You have to take their whole repertoir into account when making comparisons. But yeah, there are some screwball changes being made at an alarming pace. I'm more concerned about Groh, supposedly up for even more buffs already. Bamco must love that guy.
 
I get that NM and Siegfried players are salty about flapjack but they’re really good characters.

Take that from relapsing Tira main.

And Siegfried has another reverse ring out why does he need more than one?

I’m happy they’re on to ‘Axewel’ too.

I don’t play as Astaroth but I’m glad they’re doing him some justice.

Mina is fucking annoying at long range which she’s meant to be, why they want to make her better at short range is beyond me.
HEY NAMCO! You want a Korean good at short and mid range ADD HWANG!

Honestly Ivy should stay as she is.
The Ivy players I’ve fought post patch have legitimately fought for their matches since they can’t rely on obnoxious shit like 2A+G ‘everything will perish’ CE and 6AA
She’s a strong character make her fight for her food!

As for Groh... Why give him more?
He seems pretty strong as it is.

2B - GG easy ring out (I’ve called it before it’s way too easy for her)
 
HackNslash said:
I get that NM and Siegfried players are salty about flapjack but they’re really good characters.

Take that from relapsing Tira main.

And Siegfried has another reverse ring out why does he need more than one?
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Compared to Tira they are, but against most of the cast? Not really.

As for Sieg’s reverse RO game. It was meant to create 50/50 mixups for RO fishing when he was near the edge of the ring. It still came with it’s fair share of risks though.
 
HackNslash said:
I get that NM and Siegfried players are salty about flapjack but they’re really good characters.

Take that from relapsing Tira main.

And Siegfried has another reverse ring out why does he need more than one?

I’m happy they’re on to ‘Axewel’ too.

I don’t play as Astaroth but I’m glad they’re doing him some justice.

Mina is fucking annoying at long range which she’s meant to be, why they want to make her better at short range is beyond me.
HEY NAMCO! You want a Korean good at short and mid range ADD HWANG!

Honestly Ivy should stay as she is.
The Ivy players I’ve fought post patch have legitimately fought for their matches since they can’t rely on obnoxious shit like 2A+G ‘everything will perish’ CE and 6AA
She’s a strong character make her fight for her food!

As for Groh... Why give him more?
He seems pretty strong as it is.

2B - GG easy ring out (I’ve called it before it’s way too easy for her)
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As a Siegfried user I don't care much about the flapjack RO, it's too unsafe and cheap anyway, and I'd rather be caught dead than caught winning cheap. What really boggles my mind is decisions like focusing on Mina's close range while ignoring e.g. Siegs, as if she (with her supreme long range) was in greater need of it compared to his abysmal long/close tools. I really want to stay positive and believe it's heading in the right decision direction, but it sure as hell ain't.
 
Everybody defends their mains. You wont find a Nightmare player saying "Yeah, he's too strong and needs nerfs." There is some merrit to it because a player of any character will be intimately familiar with their holes and weaknesses more so than anyone else... that does make sense but at the same time of course you do have to consider biases.

The relevant question is, can that person defending their mains tell the difference between how much work is required to exploit those weaknesses on their character compared to the rest of the cast. The only way to truely understand that is to know the entire cast.
 
Leonhart said:
As a Siegfried user I don't care much about the flapjack RO, it's too unsafe and cheap anyway, and I'd rather be caught dead than caught winning cheap. What really boggles my mind is decisions like focusing on Mina's close range while ignoring e.g. Siegs, as if she (with her supreme long range) was in greater need of it compared to his abysmal long/close tools. I really want to stay positive and believe it's heading in the right decision direction, but it sure as hell ain't.
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You realize that you can always just grab break, jump over, or even block low to avoid getting tossed around by that throw, right?
 
Both sieg and nm get eaten alive by the shorter range fast characters that close the distance well. NM at least fared a little better because of armored agis. They also both get eaten up by ivy with her range moves. These are not brain dead characters by any means. That being said, I think they are both mid tier with sieg slightly better in My eyes. They win by being patient and getting big damage off huge reads. Sieg at least has 2 i12 moves nm has none. He also gets better wall damage than nm. They are good, just not top tier as they have too many risks and too many bad matchups
 
Listening to the siggy and NM players I get it’s feels like you’ve lost a tool that didn’t need to go.

But have you considered the game’s core mechanics have changed strategically in SC6.
So when the team say they are “looking at the concept of ring outs as a whole”
That this is just a part of it.

Siegfried as a 50/50 character has some really good mix ups if you know his stances like the back of your hand and he has a lot of break attacks to boot.
So a nerf such as flapjack not reverse ringing out doesn’t seem that damaging in the grad scale of things.
NM is a different story as powerful as he is if someone knows the match up a lot of his tools become risky or non reliable.
and does a lot worse than Siegfried when pressured.
Which is why any changes made to him would have to be surgical, big nerfs run the risk of making him useless.
So when the team say “they’re still looking into him” they should do so with caution.

So I get it, I do.
But they both damage the guard meter pretty well so this seems/feels like a core mechanic balance based on what they’re saying.

In terms of tier positioning those two ain’t so bad.

@Leonhart
Wishful thinking my dude I don’t have enough fingers to count how many cheap wins NM and Siegfried have had on me online.

Not all of them were cheap though lol.
 
AMillionHP said:
Everybody defends their mains. You wont find a Nightmare player saying "Yeah, he's too strong and needs nerfs." There is some merrit to it because a player of any character will be intimately familiar with their holes and weaknesses more so than anyone else... that does make sense but at the same time of course you do have to consider biases.

The relevant question is, can that person defending their mains tell the difference between how much work is required to exploit those weaknesses on their character compared to the rest of the cast. The only way to truely understand that is to know the entire cast.
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As a sieg main (actually he's the only one I know how to play atm), I was saying very early on that Dark legacy is cheap AF. I also said that SC SBH k's damage was too high as well as the guard crush, especially the scaling. Well they ended up nerfing it, although I have to say the damage is still a little high for what it is. It's still a little too good IMO.

Point is, some people like myself can be more or less objective about their main. I think the reason people underestimate their mains is because they are all too familiar with the shortcomings, as they are constantly trying to find ways to offset that weakness, while at the same time blind to their strengths, because their 'assets' aren't a cause for concern for those people, they're just used to winning with said advantage and not thinking much on it. People mainly focus on damage control for the shortcomings.

Sieg's overall damage output, both on fast pokes and combo's, is pretty freakin' high. He doesn't have the most devastating combo's in the game but he gets a lot of damage from a lot of different things. His mixups are strong, his ring out game is strong, his OKI is decent, his wall combo's are some of the best in the game. He doesn't need to hit you nearly as many times to kill you than most characters. what scares most people about Sieg is that he hits like a truck, where most people hit like an economy car. A few good reads and Sieg can quickly turn the tide.

But still, he's had some representation in high level tourneys, so that's reassuring for me :). (didn't linkorz win a tourney with Sieg?)
 
damn-I-Suck said:
As a sieg main (actually he's the only one I know how to play atm), I was saying very early on that Dark legacy is cheap AF. I also said that SC SBH k's damage was too high as well as the guard crush, especially the scaling. Well they ended up nerfing it, although I have to say the damage is still a little high for what it is. It's still a little too good IMO.

Point is, some people like myself can be more or less objective about their main. I think the reason people underestimate their mains is because they are all too familiar with the shortcomings, as they are constantly trying to find ways to offset that weakness, while at the same time blind to their strengths, because their 'assets' aren't a cause for concern for those people, they're just used to winning with said advantage and not thinking much on it. People mainly focus on damage control for the shortcomings.

Sieg's overall damage output, both on fast pokes and combo's, is pretty freakin' high. He doesn't have the most devastating combo's in the game but he gets a lot of damage from a lot of different things. His mixups are strong, his ring out game is strong, his OKI is decent, his wall combo's are some of the best in the game. He doesn't need to hit you nearly as many times to kill you than most characters. what scares most people about Sieg is that he hits like a truck, where most people hit like an economy car. A few good reads and Sieg can quickly turn the tide.

But still, he's had some representation in high level tourneys, so that's reassuring for me :). (didn't linkorz win a tourney with Sieg?)
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That is another thing that can help determine a character's true positiom on a tier list: How frequently they show up at tournaments. It doesnt exactly prove anything but chances are, if you see someone repeatedly, they arent trash for sure.
 
7 VS 7 Team Battle Japan VS Korean



Team Korea 1. MonoSound 2. KangMin 3. Hyunmu 4. RiceMeat 5. Pluto 6. Bluff 7. TheKura

Team Japan 1. Toilet 2. Aopai 3. Jashin 4. Hatogin 5. Kamizono 6. Yottoto 7. SHK
 
AMillionHP said:
That is another thing that can help determine a character's true positiom on a tier list: How frequently they show up at tournaments. It doesnt exactly prove anything but chances are, if you see someone repeatedly, they arent trash for sure.
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Even some really good characters tend to be underrepresented.
 
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