Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

I think Yoshi's T4 is a lot worse than his T23 aka Mishima's uppercut. Here in Switzerland, a lot of people manage to step T4, and even punish it on whiff sometimes. It's a lot harder to do so with the Mishima's uppercut. And just like lolo said, Yoshi can also play it safe and get a counter hit instead. Best thing to do is to pay attention to the timer and wait for the flames to counterhit Yoshi. Hard but do-able.

@Nofacekill3r: I think T4 is steppable on both sides, but there's definitely a side that's easier, I think it's on Yoshi's right.

@Hajime: thanks man :) Yeah I worked a lot on iMCF lately and I manage to get it around 90% of the time which allows me to play some sick mind games (doc can tell you about it). Force your opponent to get used to iMCF, RCC iMCF and then you can play mind games like iMCF, FC3K or even iMCF, 44bA (which is one of his greatest moves IMO by the way). As for punishment, I'm not used to Amy, I missed a lot of punishment and I usually woke up badly against her. Her wake-up game is so sick! Also the timing for 44bB on Amy is a little harder to get, I missed it sometimes.
 
Once you determine your opponent knows how to deal with it you have to stick to using T4 on wakes and other situations where the opponent can't step / hit you out of it and isn't expecting it. I'll have to go through my vids, because I know I'm not explaining this well, but if I were playing a match I could point out key places it works well.

Furzy: Exactly! iMCF, RCC iMCF sets up some great minds. And once they start stepping or doing jumping moves, you can mess with their heads even more. I love the mind games. =)

Hates is the only I person I know that can block 2B+K on sight / hearing it. Being able to block it on reaction can really make her less of a threat. Now, if only we could all do that consistently....
 
HajimeOwari said:
Once you determine your opponent knows how to deal with it you have to stick to using T4 on wakes and other situations where the opponent can't step / hit you out of it and isn't expecting it. I'll have to go through my vids, because I know I'm not explaining this well, but if I were playing a match I could point out key places it works well.

Furzy: Exactly! iMCF, RCC iMCF sets up some great minds. And once they start stepping or doing jumping moves, you can mess with their heads even more. I love the mind games. =)

Hates is the only I person I know that can block 2B+K on sight / hearing it. Being able to block it on reaction can really make her less of a threat. Now, if only we could all do that consistently....
Click to expand...

I guess that explains the rumors of hates liking everyone to be quiet when he played. So he listens for attacks that he cant react to?
 
Furzy:
Against Amy
3BA - you can evade second hit with pogo and punish
or you can punish on guard with MCF

Throw is a very good option against amy. everytime you guard 33B use it to stop her aGI and force her to duck.

66A+B can be punished with AA at least on closer block

2B+K is hard to punish with yoshi (33K..) but at least do something like FC 2B, dont just let her spam it.

33B,B+K is not safe against amy, rather consider poking with empy 33B or use other mids.

4A+B can help you to get around many of her set ups, though not wake ups.

Usually you wont get many chances for iMCF against amy so I wouldnt rely on it in this matchup. Whenever you get the opportunity rather use 214A, it is hard to punish for amy and evades some of her moves.(I dont remember really but I think so)

I have watched your video yesterday and dont remember all of tips I wanted to give, but I will try to record some OyM vs Edge or Kingusha Amy next time and upload. Here are some older ones maybe you will find something useful.
 
Thanks for the tips Belial, I'll watch the vids when I have some time :)

Going into Pogo against Amy's 3BA is not only hard but risky if she stops at 3B :-/ I prefer to block and use my advantage (MCF punishment lol :D) although best option would be 8K, no?

I think I can punish Amy's 2B+K with 6B which gives Yoshi some advantage on hit, can someone confirm? I wanted to try in the matches VS Tresto but I usually am so surprised I blocked it I forget to punish it lol
 
And totally forgot to mention - Furzy yeah and dont forget to punish 6BBB and 236BBBBB with 6K2K!
8K is just as riky I suppose. Just to let you know )
and about using 3BA to your adv I didnt see it it looked like you were lost whenever you blocked it xD
 
yeah i was :p it was just theoretically speaking
8K is nowhere as risky as pogo, input is a lot easier, can do it easily on reaction probably with a little habit

More vids of me vs Pantocrator (Siegfried) and Malek (boy, i got raped) coming soon.
 
If you practice enough, you should be able to see 3BA coming and FLE in response. I don't have any problems doing it if I'm paying attention and I don't consider my reactions anything amazing. If I can do it, you can do it. =)

Some additions to Belial's post:

66A+B can be punished with A from just about any range. You can AA at closer ranges, but smart Amy's won't 66A+B that close.

2B+K can be punished with FC 1KKK. That's the safest, most damaging punisher.

I've been meaning to make a video of this. A riskier 2B+K punisher is WS A since it puts you both BT. If you think Amy will go for BT B+K, you can BT K, (NO DELAY) 44bB, 44bB, a:B+K. Practice it in training mode, or you'll whiff your 44bBs. I wouldn't suggest punishing 2B+K with WS A consistently, though. IMO, Amy has the advantage in the BT situation. But, it's good to know you have this option.

Shouldn't he be able to 4A+B on wakes? As long as Amy didn't just 2B+K or 33B him while he's on the ground he has a chance to evade with 4A+B and the defensive Tekken moves. It's only after Amy hits with a grounded 2B+K or 33B that he's at such a heavy disadvantage he can't do crap. =(
 
10/04/10 – Pantocrator :sc4sig1: VS Furzy :sc2yos2: FT5 : 3-5
10/04/10 – Pantocrator :sc4sig1: VS Furzy :sc2yos2: FT5 : 1-5
Don't know the order of the vids, sorry guys...


10/04/10 – Malek :sc4ivy1: VS Furzy :sc2yos2: FT5 : 5-0 + freeplay (Final score 10-1 >_<)

Malek gave me some advice against Ivy after the FT5, didn't have enough time to use it. Bah, I'll do better next time... or not. I really think Ivy VS Yoshi is a 7-3 match-up, what do you guys think? Do you have any good Ivys there?
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@HajimeOwari: Thing with FC,1KKK is yoshi is at disadvantage after that which kinda sucks :-/ Don't have time to check now but does 6B punish also? Considering the frame data it should. Is the damage difference really that big? Nice find about the WS,A :)
 
HO: 2B+K on grounded hit allows to get up and try something. 66A+B and 33B otg doesnt.
I,m not sure about which wakeups you mean but
236KK - unless you JU no stepping and no 4A+B's
2B+K ->8A+B/33B/66A+B - no escape
juggle 6:6BA - mix up 66B/33B/1A - no escape
A-throw - basic mixup unescapable.
B-throw - dont really remember if basic mix is escapable, even if it is somehow, still 66B etc will work fine)
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Furzy: I always said and will say that yoshi has a SERIOUS range issue. One of the reasons I think this match is mitsu-favored is how much even simple RLC transition backstep (4B+K) can counter everything he does. With Ivy there is no doubt yoshi fails against her with her crazy backdash, spacing tools and broken moves.
 
Agreed. RLC is very strong against Yoshi but at least he can do something about it. Against Ivy, it's so fucking hard...

Agreed also on Amy's wake-up, not much yoshi can do. Try a 4A+B and you risk à CH 33B. It can be useful though against 6BB and mix-ups or against that TC move (66A+B or 66B+K, never know) where yoshi ends up getting a back throw. But definitely not his best tool against Amy.
 
Furzy: Yeah. 6B is a valid punisher. You're right, that seems like the way to go if your opponent knows about the FC 1KKK disadvantage.

As for Ivy:
When you were fighting Malek, you sometimes seemed hesitant to pressure him. Can I ask why? Early on you'd get in his face and keep the pressure on (
), but as time went on you'd start to hesitate more. Even when Ivy was in WP you'd hesitate and that's when you should apply the most pressure, since WP 3A is her only fast step killer from WP. And WP 3A can be punished with 6K2K.

66A+B just isn't a valid way in against Ivy, as much as we want it to be. The best thing you can do is GI the WP 6B+Ks and then 9A+Bg at mid-range when you think she's going for another poke. This at least discourages the use of WP 6B+K at certain ranges. If you get stuck in 9A+B, cancel into DGF. The window to DGF from 9A+B is huge. I've had some minor success getting in with 9B+K as well, but haven't tested it enough.

Also, why no constant 3B pressure when she rolls on the ground? She can't punish you hard on block and it stops stuff like 7B. Constant 3Bs would've forced Malek to play your wake-up game instead of you having to guess. The only time you have to be aware is when she's grounded and in CL, because she can 214{B} to stop it. I notice you instead went for riskier attacks like 33B, FC 3K, and 66B when Malek was still insistent on rolling on the ground.

This particular sequence () you are at a position advantage and can keep her from rolling too far by using 3B.

GI WP 6B+K at long range to close the distance. It seems like you were doing fine getting in eventually, though. You got off some 9A+B that would've hit if you did 9A+Bg instead.

When she goes into CL, expect crazy stepping into A+B B+K and 214B crap. You can punish 214{B} with FC 3K, btw. And 3K can catch her stepping and 214B.

Just my thoughts on the match. =)

Belial said:
HO: 2B+K on grounded hit allows to get up and try something. 66A+B and 33B otg doesnt.
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I tested this thoroughly. If Amy gets 2B+K_33B on you grounded and then goes for another 2B+K_33B mix-up, you can't do anything. T2 (Drunken Stance), T3 (Electric Jin Fists), 4A+B, iMCF, etc. None of it works. If those other moves you listed are considered wakes, then no, 4A+B won't do anything either with a highly aggressive Amy (a la Thuggish).
 
Yo guys when Ivy is spamming 6B+K try to do 4G instead of 6G. It leaves her grounded and you can run up to close distance. Like Hajime said, deathcopter isn't too bad either.

CL 1B, B+K: 8WR right and you are immune to this move. You don't need good anticipation or reaction to deal with this move.

SW 3B: Ur boned, but at least start stepping so she doesn't keep spamming you with soul gauge moves. Work your way in and make her respect 33B and FC 3K

I dont get why people have so much trouble vs. a character with terrible option select like Ivy...1B, B+K is not in her favor given how easy it is to 8wr and punish, and her step catchers in CL should be easy to react to. CL 3A is like i19 and 66A is even worse. CL AA is neutral on hit...and none of these moves do good SG damage.

FC 3K is good vs. CL stance because her punishers are bad from crouch.

Good reaction and math skills go a long way in this fight...learn to deal with her keepout, and then she becomes a character that is not too great from a mathematical standpoint after that. Belial can tell you more about matrices and all that jazz.

Sorry about the lack of organization, I kinda just wrote stuff down as they popped into my head.
 
It wasn´t so bad, if you would had punished all the unsafe stuff that Malek threw you, you would had beaten him, and Noface can tell you how unsafe did Malek played at those games...

Brad, can you confirm punishing a setup for CL214(B) like CL22B, CL214. After CL22B step right and do 44B, so Ivy would left in BT with nothing more to do than pray. It won´t be that helpful against most players, but it looks cool.
 
well., she is actually very good from math standpoint. especially given some of her spammable stuff like CL 214B, SW 22K, CL A+B, CL 1BB+K etc etc. Her keep away is not like Algol's but its still a chore and she has no problem at shaking pressure away and spacing you out. Her step, her pushback on block and hit, her evasion, all compliment each other. getting through 6B+K is not a big problem, the problem is, you have to get through it 10 times in a round.

If you step against CL 1B B+K you risk, for ex WP 3A, nvm Calamity of course. And if you dont keep stepping CL 1B,B+K second hit will connect.
And I know some people claim they can pay attention to Ivy stance - BULLSHIT.
 
Belial said:
well., she is actually very good from math standpoint. especially given some of her spammable stuff like CL 214B, SW 22K, CL A+B, CL 1BB+K etc etc. Her keep away is not like Algol's but its still a chore and she has no problem at shaking pressure away and spacing you out. Her step, her pushback on block and hit, her evasion, all compliment each other. getting through 6B+K is not a big problem, the problem is, you have to get through it 10 times in a round.

If you step against CL 1B B+K you risk, for ex WP 3A, nvm Calamity of course. And if you dont keep stepping CL 1B,B+K second hit will connect.
And I know some people claim they can pay attention to Ivy stance - BULLSHIT.
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1. 214B - Not spammable, very unsafe, only 30 damage into a false mixup stance. If they do not stance transition, they are -7 and the animation (or rather the lack of) is very obvious

2. 22K - i26, this is your own error if you think this is a spammable move. React!

3. CL A+B - Again, this is a reaction issue. She's left at -15 (if I recall correctly) and if she doesn't finish this move, so you should be able to react and do a 2A or something. If she finishes, you have options, for example you can GI the last hit. I guess if you really can't react to this, you still have that progressive defense thing you did for this move.

4. 1B, B+K - risk reward is not in her favor (mitsu 22/88A makes this risky), you can 8wr while looking for her slow step catchers. If you end up having to block this move, at least make her respect mitsurugi's range with something like b6.

As for Calamity and WP 3A, she's not going to be using these from Coiled Stance. You're probably talking about after she hits you with 1B, B+K, in which case this is one time you should learn to pay attention to stance transitions. Red flash = WP, Blue flash = SW. You dont have to pay attention all the time, but since this gives you so much trouble, at least try in this one scenario. Again, AA is neutral on hit, and if you so happen to block, the second part is duckable. 1B, B+K also pushes you out of range for her to do 2A.

Pushback on hit is a flaw, it prevents her from gaining momentum from her advantage. Picture if your BB pushed back on hit so you couldn't use 2KB or whatever. Counter productive. Her Sword stance, one way or another, will end up pushing her out of its optimal range. Even with other stances, usually she's just going to set you up for more keepout instead of a mixup, unless she runs up to you or something for a throw.


Maybe it's just because I play Ivy, but I'm an online scrub and I can react to a stance change if I'm looking for it. And you should be when 1B, B+K hits you. But again, the point is that it shouldn't be, unless it's a whiff punish. Be more evasive, use that good 'ol Z-axis! the worst you have to fear is a i19 or i20 horizontal that you should be able to react to. And if the ivy player realizes this and their keepout gets compromised, then you start rushing down.

A lot of this takes some reaction, and if you are really unable to do like a 4G (large window) on her WP 6B+K, or react to i26 lows like SW 22K, it's gonna be tough.
 
Don't agree.

Yes Ivy's moves all have a weakness. She don't have C3A.
But she has so many that it's not possible to know them all and to react to them unless your an Ivy player.
Noface, the way you describe Ivy looks like Scud point of vue. You probably are a Master in mirror match.

How ever, Ivy's move are just like Maxi's stance.
If you are not a Maxi player for very very long, you will not be able to "see" anything, but just to anticipate.
Same with Ivy.

BTW,
SW 2A+K is abusable against Yoshimitsu. There is nothing he can do againt this move. TC, kill step and no way for him to punish it properly. I get hit by this move very often, Scud too, Keev too, DTN, ... everyone.
CL 214 is safe against Yoshi from mid range to far range.
Cl 1B B+K is a broken move. Once you 8wr run you cannot G. Step G will not work against 1B B+K, and 8wr not allow you to react to CL 3A or WP 3A.
CL A+B... They are SO MANY option after this move that it cannot be a bad move.
+ WP 6B+K + SW 3B + 9gB + CS + etc...
People are not cyborg. Mix more than 10 options together, safe or not, and soon or later one of them will work.
 
Noface:

1. 214B is spammable from math point of view (and it is) b/c it STOP your opponent from atacking. Most characters cant do any significant damage to stop this move, you have to stand and guard meaning - you got close to Ivy - now what?

2. 22K/SW 2A+K Like Malek said. This move hits alot. And its super TC, and pretty safe. It really forces you to reconsider your moves b/c it will evade even many mids. If you step you anticipate stuff, if you just expect something and it will hit you then. Combine 1 and 2, you will hesitate to atack ivy close. Alot.

3. CL A+B its not really easy to deal with that move. on reaction you will not punish anything. if you anticipate A+BA you will gi/punish , if you dont, you will miss your punishment. Nevertheless this move sidesteps a bit and has some nice properties. Its a great punish it forces pressure on you even on guard and it hits step you use to evade other moves. You can prog.def against it
, but its hard. and only mitsu has RLC stance.

4. CL 1BB+K Its like Malek said, nothing to add. maybe except pushback is disadvantage. no it is not, some Ivy's just see her flaws b/c your opponent read you. Kingusha say the same all the time - "I cant keep you away blah blah, whine" but thing is, it is very troublesome escaping Ivy ranged game.

She has many moves at range you can react to that track. I dont remember all notations for it, but you cant reliably GI say 6B+K on reaction. You gi it when you see a movement, but Ivy can use slower moves etc. it will hit. Or force a hesitation.

Its just like Malek said. You have to anticipate too many things, its not possible no matter how good you are. I also want to add that if you watch sword flashes (every 2 seconds hehe) for stance change you will not have time to react to anything else.
 
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