1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Tiamat said:
what is a "guard break game"? guard break is just a visual effect, it really has little practical value. for example, nm's agA is a guard break but neutral on block, sieg's agA is not a gaurd break but is + on block. I'm just saying the notion of "guard break" is rather worthless, it's the moves that matter not the guard break property

NM CF game is not really viable if that's what you mean. he COULD CF you, it's POSSIBLE, but it will be rare, or else he'll be giving up so much guaranteed damage to do it that he will lose overall effectiveness. nightmare is only as unsafe as the player decides for him to be and how unsafe he is forced to play vs a given character. normally people talk about being forced to play safe, but you can also be forced to play unsafe. safety is a factor but it's important to realize that he can be played quite safe as well, while still doing good damage

Vader on the other hand is good at CF though he's a bit of a one trick pony about it (4B). I'm not totally sure about his anti step ability but 4AA being 100% safe on guard and doing almost 40 damage on normal hit (though it will normally hit as CH) is rather silly I think. first hit only tracks one side, AA is needed to track the other side. He has some other anti step moves that can go to combos but I'm forgetful of their exact properties. Vader is another character who is only unsafe if you play him that way, he can be fairly strong even when played in a safe fashion. I think I rated him too low in my list putting him in D, he should probably be in C. I'd say his high damage and good range offset his slow interrupt speed enough to bump him up. The other thing is that he's a character who relies a lot on throws for mixup, but he's also got a good CF ability (which IMO less than half the characters possess). Lows are still awful though.
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I was just refering to his frame advantage and pushback off of his guard breaks, paticularly off of his 1a it is dominate on wakeup.

Vader is one of those characters that I want to see more good ones, the only good one I have seen in person is Ribu. Do you know any others I can look up?

As far as safety goes I was referring to the options the character has and how many are safe in comparison to the rest of the cast. A good example I can use is Maxi since I mained him in every calibur beside this one. Maxi in this one can be played safe with single A, B, 3b, 3k, 1k, 2a but after a while you are not going to do enough damage without taking some chances because maxi does not have as many safe options as someone like amy. Maxi is just one of those risk vs reward characters and that makes him very unsafe even in a good players hands. As far as nightmare is concerned he can be played safe but compared to the Kiliks, Amys, Setsuka's of the world he just has fewer safe options.

I am glad we can have discussions about this as I didnt just want to put down a list I wanted to give reasons. I had a real hard time trying to place Yoshi, Sieg, Mitsu and Vader as I still feel like people have yet to use there whole potential, but otherwise I feel good about it.
 
I agree Belial.

Btw, to explain my second point about "developing his character", i don't necessary mean equal effort, some character can't just reach this "high curve" even with equal effort, it depend on the possibility of a character. One character with a moveset of 5 moves, can't developp better than a 50 moves movelist.

Suppose that I master all the moves, combo and match-up of Sophitia. And developped the character the much i can, in term of attacking follow up, trap, defensive follow-ups and traps.

Now Suppose that I mastered all the moves, combo and match-up of Maxi, also developped the whole possibility of each stance and followup block/hit/confirm/reaction trap (which mean insane time).

Now imagine that after that, i cloned myself, and i make a versus, Sophitia vs Maxi. I'am pretty sure i will be destroyed by Maxi.

I surely have to put 500% more effort to develop Maxi possibility, but even if i try to put the same effort for Sophitia, i will reach the high curve of the character 5 times much faster, there is a limit for each character. What i mean here, is even if Sophitia has better move, less and effective, Maxi has just too much of possibility, adapting is extra hard if you master all of them.

In case of Maxi, i'am not saying that he is the Top Tier of the game, he is totaly player's skill/mind game dependant, but i feel like that mastering his possibility is so much that even your opponnent will be brainwached, this character is really the highest learning curve that i know from a fighting game. Now that i agree with this, how I can say that he is lower or better than X, Y, cause i'am maybe at 15% of his whole developpement.

When i say "Tier List is for lazy guyz", i just want to say : "take your character, train, play, develop, be killed by problem, then think, correct, solve problem, and go on until you have tested all the possibility out of a moment, and even in that moment retry to make sure again and again... and then maybe you can say that you approch the limit that you can afford for your character, or your are just at a difficult turning point ... then retake your character!"

It may sound obessionnal, but i never stoped playing a character, no matter what he is in the tier list! So you know why i always hate tier list haha.
 
Hayate: I think it would only mean, sophitia player would have to put 500% effort in his research of this matchup. Its not hard to do a general math rendering a large piece of what people refer to as "mindgame" useless. Sadly too often complicated set ups have an easy solution if you care to seek it out. And I believe that after a certain point a maxi player will only be stressing himself, it's really hard to keep up with his complicated and risky flow. At such point, defending against him will be easier than him atacking. You can think of this as of another kind of "limit" a character can reach. Unpredictability is only great when you can still set something good up, like sacrifice damage in favor of wake up. or sacrifice KD in favor of a standing mix up, or set up a RO/wall/SG-damage. Or sacrifice a mix up in favor of setting up a CH. but such options are limited and can be explored and learned. nevermind the overall difficulty and effort to set this up and keep this going. While everything else will reduce opponents options to either guarding or inteppupting. And the question is just how much your character can do with a patient and clever opponent then.

I find your ideas very correct in general, thats why I'm answering. Its not to argue but to share my ideas too.

One part of the truth that will not be changed soon is that players with "better" characters never invest enough effort, b/c they are not quite motivated to.
 
My point about Maxi is more like : Even if you face a clever, very good, patient opponnent, actualy defending versus 1 or 2 mindgame is very predictable, but defending versus a big list of mind game and move is actualy MUCH MUCH harder.

Believe or not, he may have easy response to cut you from different situation, but still i'am sure that he will have hard to predict all of your possibility, especially if you manage to use them when he don't expect it. And if you have a lot's of option possible that will not except, this will make him freez a lot's of time.

Even if he know the match up, it will more difficult to analys all the possibility, and he will be freezed by reaction confusing options.

Lot's of people don't realize that frame data is technicaly correct, and can be verified for distance and axis problem, but the number in term of frame that a move cause an opponnent to brain-think or analys is a very unknown, this is useless if you have no followup causing opponnent to BUFFER a response move before analyse what's going on, but it can be a big problem if you have a way to force "Visual Confirmation before buffering".

Sometimes peoples end to say that one move suckz because it's -10, but they don't see that this move recovery fast (in term of duration) and have a followup that cause the opponnent to not buffer a "response", and will cause a reaction trap if you just stop and go for an other thing, the window of the "visual confirmation" of the opponent depend on how quick is the recovery animation, and how you can confuse it with an other move.

I still didn't find all the reaction trap for Kilik, but Maxi has like x20 of this situation. This part of this game is rarely explored by player, only players who invest into there character will discover this type of traps.

That's just my opinion btw, i may be wrong! And i appreciate to debate about this.
 
Hayate you are very correct, especially the point about players investing in characters to gain insight and also the need to repeatedly play your character in different ways in order to unlock the depth. It's the same reason why I've never chosen another main, since I realize that I'm not even close to understanding the truth behind my current character.
 
Hayate said:
Lot's of people don't realize that frame data is technicaly correct, and can be verified for distance and axis problem, but the number in term of frame that a move cause an opponnent to brain-think or analys is a very unknown, this is useless if you have no followup causing opponnent to BUFFER a response move before analyse what's going on, but it can be a big problem if you have a way to force "Visual Confirmation before buffering".

Sometimes peoples end to say that one move suckz because it's -10, but they don't see that this move recovery fast (in term of duration) and have a followup that cause the opponnent to not buffer a "response", and will cause a reaction trap if you just stop and go for an other thing, the window of the "visual confirmation" of the opponent depend on how quick is the recovery animation, and how you can confuse it with an other move.

I still didn't find all the reaction trap for Kilik, but Maxi has like x20 of this situation. This part of this game is rarely explored by player, only players who invest into there character will discover this type of traps.

That's just my opinion btw, i may be wrong! And i appreciate to debate about this.
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Hey hayate! I've been thinking about this on the same terms, as far as frame data, and the analysis of move properties is concerned. I'd like to add that the opponent's response time greatly differs between players. Players with whack reflexes require faster responses. I believe that the determination of this can only come out through a lot of experience.

Moreover, i always have two criteria for moves that work the way you mentioned

1) They must be a string ( As you mentioned ). The BEST type, is the one that forces your opponent to block low. If they guard low, and stand up again, many frames are wasted. This can be seen in good application of Raphael AB, X 6BB and SXS transitions that are lows.

2) They must have very very brisk animation and have good recovery on block. An example would be Xianghua's B. Xianghua's B is small disadvantage on block but its animation is so brisk that if the opponent is conditioned to a BB, an AAB wil CH easily if the opponnent reacts late.

I always look for these in a movelist when i study a character because it can lead to very interesting applications.

Another element i love to consider, is the element of range. Some moves lead to amazing set ups only when blocked at a certain range against some characters. Of course, the range varies. However this is a different case altogether.

I love the way some players can use their characters to deviate from a direct 50/50 to other setups. It gives a magical feeling when you watch smoe one play like that. I always stick to Xianghua hoping to give that feeling eventually.

I am very glad to see more useful/accurate/interesting posts in this thread.
 
filldoh said:
I have been thinking about this list long and hard and think I have come to a conclusion. What do you guys think

Cass: Great Damage for a fast Character, linear but has the tools if played safe. Good throws, great ringouts, good punishment. Lack of good lows.


Yoshi: Solid mixups, good unblockables, good speed, susceptible to step.
Cervy: great damage, very fast, good SG damage, solid 1k leads to great mixups, very unsafe keeps him from being top.
Ivy: Good Damage, good mixups, best throw game around. Not very safe.
Asta: Great damage, gives bad matchups for some Characters, Great Throw Game, very unsafe
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ivy doesn't have the best throw game..just the strongest damage...
asta has enough range that he keeps ppl out of punishing range. He's only unsafe if you play him that way...
1k gets killed by 1A happy characters...all the options are slow (but its still his best low by FAR). And again..he's not THAT unsafe. And where he is unsafe there is a matter of the opponent missing a 1 or 2 frames of advantage leading to a counterhit for cervy (ppl don't react to a move 100% of the time) if they try to attack so a lot of the time it feels safer to hold guard against him..which leads to even more mix-up for cervy...if you have cas as an A...cervy is def right there with what I consider a better throw game, more damage, less linear (only lacks sg damage).


docvizzo said:
Epic fail ;)
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lol...yeaaaa.... i have gotten a CF once or twice though..lol.

Hayate said:
My point about Maxi is more like : Even if you face a clever, very good, patient opponnent, actualy defending versus 1 or 2 mindgame is very predictable, but defending versus a big list of mind game and move is actualy MUCH MUCH harder.

Believe or not, he may have easy response to cut you from different situation, but still i'am sure that he will have hard to predict all of your possibility, especially if you manage to use them when he don't expect it. And if you have a lot's of option possible that will not except, this will make him freez a lot's of time.

Even if he know the match up, it will more difficult to analys all the possibility, and he will be freezed by reaction confusing options.

Lot's of people don't realize that frame data is technicaly correct, and can be verified for distance and axis problem, but the number in term of frame that a move cause an opponnent to brain-think or analys is a very unknown, this is useless if you have no followup causing opponnent to BUFFER a response move before analyse what's going on, but it can be a big problem if you have a way to force "Visual Confirmation before buffering".

Sometimes peoples end to say that one move suckz because it's -10, but they don't see that this move recovery fast (in term of duration) and have a followup that cause the opponnent to not buffer a "response", and will cause a reaction trap if you just stop and go for an other thing, the window of the "visual confirmation" of the opponent depend on how quick is the recovery animation, and how you can confuse it with an other move.

I still didn't find all the reaction trap for Kilik, but Maxi has like x20 of this situation. This part of this game is rarely explored by player, only players who invest into there character will discover this type of traps.

That's just my opinion btw, i may be wrong! And i appreciate to debate about this.
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Yea..ppl don't AA on reaction to a 1 frame advantage EVERY time. (now a huge frame advantage is a different story..). Thats why stuff like cervy's B2 on the ground ..anyone's BB only having the B being performed (especially yoshi who follows up with imcf)... and all sorts of other "trick traps" as opposed to tech traps or frame advantages. People look at frames too much just as they look at tiers too much. They help...and tehy can be useful...but only up to a point.

Sometimes one simple trap can screw with even the best player's head..and if you are able to constantly change your trap once u realize that they realize your old trap you'll be constantly one step ahead with a huge advantage. BUT...maxi is a bad example I feel. Yes..he forces ppl to hold block, but because of his constant use of stances (can't block in stance) he loses a few EXTRA frames on anything he does. And while he can mix-up, he has only 1 real "good" low mix-up in stance(his kicks honestly are too slow of lows). While you say maxi has 20x the amount of mix-up potential I actually feel that stances do the opposite and force him into a much smaller selection of moves while makes him have FEWER mix-ups at a given point in time. With someone like yoshi you can...at any point...start your own mix-up OR counter their mix-up. Maxi can only really start his own mix-ups. I think a sophitia version of you would win because maybe in theory maxi could get to "100%" but in reality no character can pass a certain point even with "the best player in the world." To start saying "play at 100%" you start to move it too far away from "being" and too close to JI everything on reaction or saying something like Setsuka is the best merely because she has an impact move that after 3 or 4 JI with it starts doing 100 damage guaranteed for a single impact.

(but I agree...tiers aren't that useful..other than A: to tell new ppl who the MIGHT want to start out a try or B: to get an idea of how "easy" it will be to win with them ..which is not the same as how GOOD the character is or its winning "potential")
 
Maxi really does suck against defensive opponents that know Maxi. Although he does have a lot of different options he can do, he can only do a few different options at any given time (and almost none of these options are low). Because of this, the opponent can in most cases, choose an option that has a high probability to beat out Maxi's choice of attack. To make matters worse for Maxi, the damage he gets for all this gambling is not even that good compared to some of the other characters.

Believe me, you can learn all the tricks in the book with Maxi, but if the opponent knows what the tricks are and how to defend against them, you are gonna be forced into guessing games that are not in Maxi's favor. It took me a long time to realize this myself, but its true.
 
Agreed.

Hayate's point would be valid if Maxi would deal much more damage, and wouldn't be THAT easy to find SAFE ways to punish/stop him.
Although I totally can understand Hayate's point of view, and I can find the point valid with Mitsurugi as an exemple (stance).
 
Dullyanna said:
*Stolen from Tidus' first post:

Tiamat Tier List

S: Hilde, Algol
A: Kilik, Amy, Voldo, Setsuka, X
B: Soph, Asta, Cervy, Lizard, Yoshi
C: Raph, NM, Sieg, Cass, Mitsu, Tira, Ivy, Yun, Taki, Apprentice
D: Zas, Maxi, Rock, Vader, Talim
E: Mina, Yoda

Foxbot Tier List

S: Hilde, Algol, Amy
A: Kilik, Voldo, Setsuka, Sophie
B: Cass, Asta, Cervy, Lizardman, Yoshi, Ivy, X
C: Raph, Sieg, Taki, Apprentice, Mitsu
D: NM, Yun, Maxi, Tira
E: Zas, Rock, Talim, Mina

Noface Tier list
S
*Hilde*, Voldo, Kilik, Algol
A+
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy
A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki
B
Astaroth, Xianghua, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice
C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim
D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel

Short Bus
Yoda


@Nori: Please, give me reasons why Taki is potentially top tier. I'd love some specifics, including matchups with other top/high tier characters.
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what does tiamat, foxbot, or noface mean?
 
GATOR said:
And where he is unsafe there is a matter of the opponent missing a 1 or 2 frames of advantage leading to a counterhit for cervy (ppl don't react to a move 100% of the time) if they try to attack so a lot of the time it feels safer to hold guard against him..which leads to even more mix-up for cervy...if you have cas as an A...cervy is def right there with what I consider a better throw game, more damage, less linear (only lacks sg damage)
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Don't even bother. Most of the people in here haven't seen a good Cervantes and have no idea what they are talking about
 
Nori said:
Don't even bother. Most of the people in here haven't seen a good Cervantes and have no idea what they are talking about
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I was actually gonna post something about that..but my comp was about to run out of battery last night\morning and I didn't feel like plugging it in so I posted what I had written so far.

What I was gonna say is that the problem with tier lists is that ...honestly...there is not a single player in this forum who has player a real top player of EVERY character. Therefore, they tend towards placing the characters they play against often or win with often because they KNOW about them. There are plenty of people that can look up frame data fora character or read someone's post in anotherp art of the forum and use it for a basis, but until you've REALLY play a GOOD player (or at least a pretty good-good player) its hard to really give a fair opinion on the subject. I'd say I can only give a fair assesment of cervy/yoshi/asty/cass/yoda (crap tier...I don't care..lol)/kilik/sets/maxi/voldo/ and maybe a few others...but honestly I don't think I know enough PERSONALLY of the "pawnage" of say hilde to call her top top tier. I PERSONALLY have troubles against Algol sometimes, but I still usually win against the ppl I play that use him if I use one of my mains. I have knowledge of taki, but for her I really only know what she's like online..and I know that I can't really use that to correlate anything to offline so I don't bother to. And therefore for ME to make a tier list just wouldn't make sense. For that matter it doesn't make sense for anyone here to make a tier list and try and say its "legit."

For that matter people tend to be bias towards characters they use because ...again..they KNOW what they can do or can't do. Someone might say cervy is linear (that post was somewhere o.O) some might say asty's soul gauge damage is useless. Now here is my second point... Match-ups lists are MUCH MUCH MUUUUCCHHH more useful than "tier" lists. A Hilde player can say "my character is the best in the game" but if the other person's main is asty or amy or rock (who doesn't get enough love... he's unsafe and doesn't have "real" mix-up but he is DEFINITELY usable) then the match-up just isn't the same. Cervy might seem linear when fighting against certain characters, but thats only because its a counter to something the other character has. Fighting games is all about finding mix-ups and finding counters to those mix-ups.... which is why tiers are ..for the most part...useless
 
Well this is theorical concept and debate about Maxi.

I was also considering that you can do more unexpected options with Maxi than other character, making the response of the enemy less reliable.

Btw, i'am playing Maxi more and more, cause i have already find a lot's of effecient things with Kilik. I'am actually applying theorical to pratical. I face big problem, but i manage to solve problem at least. I will probably have different opinion in the next month (if i don't play to much to SF4 lol).

The only thing that i'am sure about it, the true is experimental, i will try to reach it.
 
There is virtually a 0% chance of Cervantes being TOP tier because TOP would mean he's equal to or better than Hilde and Algol, and he's not.

High tier? you could argue that decently. Top? you can't even argue for that without looking stupid
 
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