1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ring:

Thanks!

33B, 3B, 1A:A:A, B+K all are now in my movelist for when I use her. I saw most of CheeseOfTheDays videos and he does use it alot. Excellent execution but it seems risky seeing how B+K serve's the same purpose except for the TC Frames. The thing I like about his Setsuka the most is his phenomenal use of her wave dashing. I don't know his name but the Sophitia player that you used to play in some of ur vids used her wave dashing ability so well.

Maxou:

The vid was there to point some things out.

Kilik vs. Setsuka:

bA is getting punished by 3kB (35-Damage) if the Setsuka uses it smart and the exact tip range for that move is impractical. Using it dumb up close will cost u A+B, 66B, 66B (80-Damage).

1A:A:A is getting 3kB (35-Damage) because of its pushback. A+B will hit but can't combo because of pushback. Not sure if 22B will connect. On the other side of the spectrum Kilik has a number of unseeable lows that have more range are safe and do damage. Setsuka still wins here though but not by a landslide.

Using 1B:B or FC 3B:B will place u in a GI mixup or punishment mixup. So ur dealing with Asura JF/Standard GI or 3kB/A+B for punishment. If u can indeed GI on reaction due to the flash its even worse. The end result is in Kilik's favor by a large margin.

33B is the golden tool of Setsuka. Places u right in line for Asura once in a while due to extreme use. Landing Asura against this once or twice is more than enough which is what happens in that vid and is the same thing I would do or have done against HumanTyphoon that makes the match much harder. Less practical but still practical is the stepping of this move similiar to Kilik's WsB reaping the same rewards from both.

Post Standard GI: Kilik has A+B (80-Damage) and Setsuka has 1B:B (68-Damage). Kilik wins here.

Those are just some examples. I appreciate the tips.
 
Saitoh said:
S-U asked me to do this, here is my last chart for Astaroth :

Amy 5:5
Cassandra 4:6
Cervantes 5:5
Hilde 5:5
Ivy 4:6
Kilik 5:5
Lizardman 6:4
Maxi 6:4
Mina 7:3
Mitsurugi 4:6
Nightmare 7:3
Raphael 6:4
Rock 7:3
Setsuka 4:6
Siegfried 6:4
Sophitia 4:6
Taki 6:4
Talim 7:3
Tira 6:4
Voldo 5:5
Xianghua 6:4
Yoshimitsu 4:6
Zasalamel 5:5
Click to expand...

I agree for the most part. Though I would advocate 5:5 vs Cassandra, 5:5 vs Mitsurugi, 6:4 vs Nightmare, and 3:7 vs Setsuka.

I am still interested in the Astaroth vs Siegfried matchup. Asta and Sieg players, care to explain?
 
IMO the Sets is too agressive. Too much 33B, too much bA, random A+K B against Kilik at the start of the match... No A+K A, little 66A, no 214A, no 11A.

You say :
"Using 1B:B or FC 3B:B will place u in a GI mixup or punishment mixup. So ur dealing with Asura JF/Standard GI or 3kB/A+B for punishment. If u can indeed GI on reaction due to the flash its even worse. The end result is in Kilik's favor by a large margin."
> you can see the other point of view too, it will place your opponent in a GI mix up or a combo mix up. If the sets only did 1B then step, she could have used B+K so it's a risk/reward situation.

"33B is the golden tool of Setsuka."
> No. Using that much 33B is asking to get countered by whatever means your opponent has. Kilik has Asura.

"Post Standard GI: Kilik has A+B (80-Damage) and Setsuka has 1B:B (68-Damage). Kilik wins here."
> Kilik has a strong post stantard GI, but Setsuka too. Kilik may win here but he won't on other domains like speed, punishment, throws, etc...
 
Maxou:

Do u have vids of ur Setsuka on youtube? If so can u please link me. I'm a bit curious to see how different ur Sets is compared to Cube (Korea), Nando (DR), etc.
 
tresto: noo, I'm not bringing any russian food along =) But no worries I wont be needing it since Im not going to lose to anybody ^_^

Maxou: why do you always say things like "this vid proves nothing".. nobody plays perfectly you know. maybe he is overly agressive b/c his opponent is good at taking up momentum? from my experience giving up offence is a very poor decision in SC4 there are always a better options. Korean level is pretty high you can tell from the way the play. So disregarding them as if they dont know stuff and their vids dont show anything is arrogant. To me it seems you only are eager to see your own point.
 
Belial : Don't make me say what I didn't !! I never intented to disregard them !! Far from it (along with omega, they are my SC4 idols, especially kura) ! But video proves nothing in a match up thread alas.
Let's take Kura vs Malek at nats, Kura won, is it proof that Talim vs Ivy is 5-5? No. Videos proves nothing.

Even if perfect play is not possible, it is the goal everyone should want to get, just like Malek made mistake against Kura's Talim, Cube made mistakes against the kilik, and IMO using that much "random" 33B is dangerous against any character and shouldn't really be abused. 33B is good damage, using the move I said before is less agressive (less damage) but less predictible, and less dangerous because of Asura.
 
tresto said:
so I challenge you FT10 for a home made apple crumble (made by myself, following my mom's legendary recipe) or an apple tart (that's my dad's recipe).
Click to expand...

Common Tresto, why didnt you challenge me??? I just got eggs!! EGGS!!! :P :P

Doc <3 Cake.
 
Foxbot said:
I agree for the most part. Though I would advocate 5:5 vs Cassandra, 5:5 vs Mitsurugi, 6:4 vs Nightmare, and 3:7 vs Setsuka.

I am still interested in the Astaroth vs Siegfried matchup. Asta and Sieg players, care to explain?
Click to expand...
An Astaroth vs Siegfried match is something very tricky to explain. I play as Siegfried as main an Astaroth as secondary choice, and the two best Astaroth players in my country are in my town and play always in my house, so I have a lot of experience on these matches. Astaroth have the advantage in damage, Ring Out, reach, safeness, and UB list, but Siegfried have the advantage about gamble and evade speed. With 2_8 B+K Siegfried can evade an punish almost all the vertical attacks from Astaroth, even the deadly bull rush (66K) and punish most of the whiffed attacks with SCH B_K.

Astaroth long range horizontal attacks like A+B, 4A, 44A, 66A, etc can be guarded without risk about soul gauge so its a matter of "wait and run" after those attacks to be close enough to attack. In the case of long range verticals like 44B_, 3B_ I always interrupt those moves using 3B(using the tip distance) or rolling if I was knockdown.

To me, an Astaroth vs Siegfried match is 6:4 in a closed/partially closed stage/open_but_wide, and 5:5 in a short open stage.

Maybe someone already send you a tier list for Siegfried, but just for compare results:

Amy 5:5
Cassandra 4:6
Cervantes 5:5
Hilde 6:4 (closed stage)/ 4:6
Ivy 5:5
Kilik 5:5
Lizardman 6:4
Maxi 6:4
Mina 7:3
Mitsurugi 5:5
Nightmare 5:5
Raphael 6:4
Rock 8:2
Setsuka 4:6
Astaroth 6:4
Sophitia 6:4
Taki 7:3
Talim 7:3
Tira 7:3
Voldo 6:4
Xianghua 6:4
Yoshimitsu 4:6
Zasalamel 6:4

-Stryker-
 
In my opinion, matchups should be ranked assuming random stage select. It's certainly true that some matchups change based on the stage, but I think you just have to average that stuff out in your head and see where things fall overall.
 
Stryker said:
An Astaroth vs Siegfried match is something very tricky to explain. I play as Siegfried as main an Astaroth as secondary choice, and the two best Astaroth players in my country are in my town and play always in my house, so I have a lot of experience on these matches. Astaroth have the advantage in damage, Ring Out, reach, safeness, and UB list, but Siegfried have the advantage about gamble and evade speed. With 2_8 B+K Siegfried can evade an punish almost all the vertical attacks from Astaroth, even the deadly bull rush (66K) and punish most of the whiffed attacks with SCH B_K.

Astaroth long range horizontal attacks like A+B, 4A, 44A, 66A, etc can be guarded without risk about soul gauge so its a matter of "wait and run" after those attacks to be close enough to attack. In the case of long range verticals like 44B_, 3B_ I always interrupt those moves using 3B(using the tip distance) or rolling if I was knockdown.

To me, an Astaroth vs Siegfried match is 6:4 in a closed/partially closed stage/open_but_wide, and 5:5 in a short open stage.

Maybe someone already send you a tier list for Siegfried, but just for compare results:

Amy 5:5
Cassandra 4:6
Cervantes 5:5
Hilde 6:4 (closed stage)/ 4:6
Ivy 5:5
Kilik 5:5
Lizardman 6:4
Maxi 6:4
Mina 7:3
Mitsurugi 5:5
Nightmare 5:5
Raphael 6:4
Rock 8:2
Setsuka 4:6
Astaroth 6:4
Sophitia 6:4
Taki 7:3
Talim 7:3
Tira 7:3
Voldo 6:4
Xianghua 6:4
Yoshimitsu 4:6
Zasalamel 6:4

-Stryker-
Click to expand...


I have to disagree on your assessment on this matchup (and some others, but more on that later).
First off, from my experience the matchup boils down to who can contain the other character better and apply mix-ups. With loss of many of his effective blocktraps from 3 Asta can longer keep Sieg locked down effectively and has to rely on hit-fishing and holes in Siegs momentum-flow to get his game going, while the latter actually gained options in that department and can stay on the offensive much easier. While Asta may still have a slight edge in terms of dmg potential, that only really applies to throws, post-G.I. and longrange long recovery whiff-punishment, but that sorta evens out, because Sieg has an easier time forcing his damage and can punish Asta harder than the other way around (most noteably when 3B is considered). Astaroth can NOT play an effective spacing game vs Siegfried. iWS A, unsafe as it may be, is an incredibly effective tool against Astas longrange game and shuts down the vast majority of his options. At the range where 44A, 4A, AB, 66A and other moves become a threat, Sieg is in range to respond with his own spacing moves, which outspeed Astas arsenal easily. Because of how Sieg cripples Astas spacing and how both characters work their main offense, most of the fight usually takes place in closerange, where Sieg holds the advantage in speed and Asta in damage. The end result mainly depends on the throw-breaking and anti-throw/throw-punishment options on both sides and again how often each combatant can force mix-up situations. Stage matters little as both characters have good RO and wall-games with Asta - again - getting more bang for his buck and Sieg bringing more options.

5.5-4.5 in Siegs favor imo.
 
Ha! The tourney was doomed!!! i couldnt even win against ipk and after the tourney i bet him 15:0.

I DEMAND a cake next time im at your house :P
 
Asta vs Sieg - 5-5 or 6-4

Upclose Sieg puts his life on the line with every attack and though he's able to "dodge" bullrush this opens him up to other attacks that pretty much rape his life bar. And I'll assume Asta is doing 99% JF throw (as it's possible cause I do it) spinning because SUPER risky as much as trying to 3 or w/e you try to get away from that.

I block 3b/ I get 4b for FREEEEEE and if he wants to trade with me I still have 6a(b). He has other attacks such as his spinning sword thingy (ag:a? ? somethin like that) and his other high but of course I have 66k or from crouching Bull Rush and even if I block it he's still NEXT to me and has to do a life threatening guess. If he guesses right he will have to do so 2-3 more times to my 1.

So he has to guess right 3:1 ratio to beat Asta because Asta knockdowns are much worse than his because the damage can just spike off the roof instantly. Alot of Sieg tricks get caught by simple ass 6b which nets stupid damage lol

Also when Asta gets life lead then Sieg has to REALLY put his life on the line so it makes the match up even worse because Asta can keep him away and zone him much better than Sieg can come in without risking his life.

Can someone tell me what Setsuka is gonna do against Asta up close other than go toe to toe with him. She's not getting away from bullrush and will end up having to fight him on his terms IMO so she definitely isn't raping him how you seem to think she is.
 
Woot I got 3 Sieg players from 3 different countries to respond. I am so cool ...

Stryker and Sacharja think it' minor advantage for Sieg while NinjaCW thinks it's minor advantage for Asta. Interesting!

Here's some of my own analysis but I am not sure how it would affect the match up number-wise:

Firstly, range-wise, I think Asta has advantage at long~very long range, Sieg has advantage at mid range (once 3 and maybe iagA can hit), then it's unclear who has advantage at short range (around Sieg's throw range or Asta's 4B range). So if I were to play Siegfriend I would make sure my 3 is always in range.

Secondly, Asta can't punish Sieg's 3 worth a damn haha. 4B is neutral on hit and at that distance, it's awkward for Asta IMO. Also, Sieg has a superior CF game and a competative spacing game that are troublesome to Asta looking for punishable moves.

Thirdly, Asta's step hurts him in this matchup. I am more confident at back steping then punishing with 3B to be honest, even though it has its danger as well.

Fourthly, Hong Kong players found out that Sieg can limit 80% of Asta's options by step~iWS .

NinjaCW: care to explain how Asta's 6B can destroy Sieg's tricks?

Ok I'll explain my own take on the Asta vs Sets matchup. First of all, Setsuka has advantage from long to mid range. Aside from whiff punishing Setsuka's mistakes with 22B4 (some anticipation may be needed), applying 3B/3 mixup sparingly, and GI some strings occasionally, there is not much for Asta to do here without risking eating CH 33B. After Asta chases down Setsuka to throw range (with Asta eating a 66A or 33B probably), the real fight begins. Setsuka has way more options here actually ... some of her core moves have good pushback that allow her to try these options. For example, her BB (already annoying because it tracks Asta a bit) pushes Asta out of his throw range. Setsuka can side step or back step then punish with B+K, or interrupt with iUmbrella just to name two nasty things she can do. For mixups, in addition to 1A:A:A, she also has 2A+B vs Asta. Setsuka can also block punish Asta well.

There are a few good things going for Asta ... Setsuka's A+G combo fails to connect. Her 4A is not that great vs Asta. Asta's big size means he is a bit harder to RO. And all great Setsuka players will have health problems from executing too much JFs eventually.
 
Asta can punish Sieg's 3 everytime with 6A on block.
This match-up to me is 5:5 or 6:4 in Asta's favor.

A match-up like this I would insert "bodysplash" in whatever tricks Seig might pull.
 
Course sieg could just do nothing after blocked 3 and take normal hits (as Foxbot was implying). Asta 6A and 4B on normal hit are so scary you know, Sieg must be wetting himself.
 
Sacharja said:
I have to disagree on your assessment on this matchup (and some others, but more on that later). 5.5-4.5 in Siegs favor imo.
Click to expand...
Don't worry Sach; my assessment only express the kind of experience I had in this matchup. I've played as Astaroth against other Siegf's users and this is what I learned: Siegf's best weapons can't afraid an Asta's user; but you can always do the trick doing a forced mid range combat then retreating if you have health advantage... Asta's users really know how do a tremendous combat using the Golem inhuman strength and RO properties, and the best tactic in this match is hit and run to make the opponent change to a close/fierce combat.

I always try to use only the moves I really need in every match, but in an match against Asta Siegf is free to pull the complete move-list giving a hard time to the Asta's user that can't use their anticipation tactics. But the reality is that the "Cursed Golem" is easier to read and anticipate moves, something that can be a mistake against Siegfried, like keeping the guard up or waiting for some "guard and punish" is excellent against Astaroth. Also Siegfried is a gambler, so if Asta guess right, I'm screw; but if the guess is wrong the result will be very painful.

To me is 6:4 and 5:5 in short open stages, final word. Siegf's have the advantage. But in some cases, like Omega's Zazalamel, when the defense, attack and others aspect of the game basics are outstanding then maybe I(and any Siegf's player) would really lose. In regular game where the opponents are equals then Siegfried would really kick their asses. And BTW upper-mid tier is the title for Siegfried.

-Stryker-

PD: I found that since SC3 exist a new tier category that I named as "Broken Tier"; as example for SC4 Hilde is a real broken tier.
 
Maxou:

I think u couldn't be more wrong on the issue of vids. I just don't think u know how to analyze what u see with proper discretion outside of ur own opinion or preference in playstyle. Korea's level of comp is high if not the best proven by Kura and Seung Cheul with there recent presence in the U.S.
 
@Asta vs Sieg

Yes he can just do 3 and no follow up making it a normal hit but THAT'S the mix up which favors Astaroth lol. He stops doing the follow up he's now in MY mix up which has much more damage than he does. The only way he can literally get away from my throws is probably 2b+k but I have yet for someone to try something that risky cause it only beats 6a (i think?)

Once again Sieg has to guess right way more times than Asta will because what will Sieg be punishing other than when he's ducking throws or spinning away from stuff. And Sieg isn't doing 3 to mix me up, let's be serious lol.

@ 6b vs Sieg Tricks
Delaying it will get you a CH on spinning Sieg's who decided to hit the button after dodging nothing or for those that like to duck and do his WR b attack. It works REALLY well on those that try to do 2b+k shenanigans lol. You can also use 3a to snatch up spins as well but I think he can punish that so I use it sparringly.
 
I just don't see why being able to punish/mixup Sieg after blocked 3 is relevant to matchup discussion since every character can do it. It's not like the only way to play Sieg is to spam 3 either (even if it is one of his best moves).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom