1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Fuzzy and twitch guarding? Delayed throws? This isn't Virtua Fighter.

Asta is all about is Command Throws, Bullrush and ringouts. Bullrush isn't a 15-16 frame launcher leading to 28B+G on normal hit. And why use 4B and 6K against duckers? They are CH tools. Bullrush knocks down on any hit, everytime. If I am looking for an attack that catches duckers, then bullrush is the way to go. So what if it doesn't do 50+ damage? Too many Bullrushes means your opponent is about to meet the wall or the end of the round. If they block it, their opponent is still pushed back, and the mixups begin. You want to block bullrush, you might get grabbed. You want to duck a throw, you might get Bullrushed. If you're not controlling the ring, you might get RO'd, and don't get GI'd by him. Everyone has seen this since SC1/2. SC3 made him a wall, but the same strats apply. I just don't understand why he is sounding like the new hotness. This is over 10 years of GIGAS.

In the end, Asta is top 10, and that's as high as he will get in this game.
 
I don't know about anyone else but is anyone curious about Zasalamel. I imagine he's still one of the lower characters in the game but how low exactly. Call me crazy but I think he could be right under mid tier or in mid tier based on how Omega uses him even considering Omega's reflexes.

He seems to be highly underrated and from what I can remember he controls space fairly well and limits stepping. Anyone else curious or am I a lone shark here.

After recently having the time to play SCIII for the first time I noticed that Kilik is mostly unchanged including Asura which does exactly the same thing it used to do except that it counters all horizontals like pre 1.3 SCIV patch. Other than that it still tech jumped, did stupid damage, still had the JF etc. Which leads me to think all the complaints in the past and now are just because X, Sophie Ivy, Asta etc. are no longer broke so people just went to the next thing to complain about.

This brings me to Zasalamel which no one payed attention to before either but since the above have been nerfed to hell and back is it possible he is much better than the constant Zaslamel sucks comment and Omega thinks SCIV Zasalamel is better than SCIII Zasalamel.
 
Well SC4 Zas is better suited to Omega's style of play more that SC3. Zas does control space pretty well, but the thing is he's unsafe which most people don't realize or the fact that all of his damage comes off counter hit. Most of the good moves that Omega uses with Zas has a lot of duckable parts that people don't duck. Now if you end up blocking all of those strings then yeah Zas isn't bad.

Zas's step is actually really good which Omega proved.

The things that really hurt Zas is that most of his lows are telegraphed, his throws don't do much damage nor do they leave him in a position for oki, and most of his safe moves are linear. With that said I would seriously put him near the bottom of the tier list. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have decent matchups, but it does mean that the is nowhere near the mid tier.
 
Something-Unique said:
I don't know about anyone else but is anyone curious about Zasalamel. I imagine he's still one of the lower characters in the game but how low exactly. Call me crazy but I think he could be right under mid tier or in mid tier based on how Omega uses him even considering Omega's reflexes.

He seems to be highly underrated and from what I can remember he controls space fairly well and limits stepping. Anyone else curious or am I a lone shark here.

After recently having the time to play SCIII for the first time I noticed that Kilik is mostly unchanged including Asura which does exactly the same thing it used to do except that it counters all horizontals like pre 1.3 SCIV patch. Other than that it still tech jumped, did stupid damage, still had the JF etc. Which leads me to think all the complaints in the past and now are just because X, Sophie Ivy, Asta etc. are no longer broke so people just went to the next thing to complain about.

This brings me to Zasalamel which no one payed attention to before either but since the above have been nerfed to hell and back is it possible he is much better than the constant Zaslamel sucks comment and Omega thinks SCIV Zasalamel is better than SCIII Zasalamel.
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Any damage is good damage.
Zass is lower mid,..his design in SC4 is centered around mind games.
His hella unsafe however, and that means you have to know what you're doing to make him work.

Basically Zass can only be played defensively, he gets his offense when the opponent has to choose between mids and throws, or lows and mids. All of his lows give no advantage at all.

He has a nasty ringout game that can never be underestimated, and his SC damage is decent.

Zass players depend heavily on the opponents anticipation, the more you try to anticipate what we're going to do the better...Like I said he is a mind game character.

About Omega
IMO, the reason he uses Zass, is because he completes his style without too many tools...Omega's style, is basically use the Universal SC system to perfection, step, gi, space, throw breaking (in SC3 he was a god at this), ducking...etc. Zass is simple enough for him to do this, without a huge moveset...

If this guy was ever to pick up Mitsurugi again.
 
KingAce said:
Any damage is good damage.
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That is the center of Omega's strategy... I play always to do intense damage and he beats me (and the others players)with short damages but precisely attacks, and that's not very good when you are trying to make a comeback.
KingAce said:
Zass is lower mid,..his design in SC4 is centered around mind games.
His hella unsafe however, and that means you have to know what you're doing to make him work.
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He is very unsafe but this is part of the limitations the developers put into him to force to make more suitable for minds games, that its the goal in every character develop (I guess); his power are in RO and punishing, and an acceptable stepping blocking game, but this only works with reflexes and patience.

KingAce said:
He has a nasty ringout game that can never be underestimated, and his SC damage is decent.

Zass players depend heavily on the opponents anticipation, the more you try to anticipate what we're going to do the better...Like I said he is a mind game character.
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That's the better part of Zazalamel (he is not like Hilde but its better than other mid) and only with sharp senses you achieve to win using this part of his game... it somebody block you are screwed. Anticipation is the number one power in Omega's repertory... he have mental powers or something.

KingAce said:
About Omega
IMO, the reason he uses Zass, is because he completes his style without too many tools...Omega's style, is basically use the Universal SC system to perfection, step, gi, space, throw breaking (in SC3 he was a god at this), ducking...etc. Zass is simple enough for him to do this, without a huge moveset...
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Amen.

KingAce said:
If this guy was ever to pick up Mitsurugi again.
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Not please... don't ever say it again... I don't wanna remember the incredible winning streaks he did when use to play as Mitsurugi in SC2 and SC3. If he pick Mitsurugi in this game I will retire.

-Stryker-
 
Zas has always been capable of winning, but it requires an immaculate defense, as Omega has shown. Zas' biggest problem is with smart turtles and Hilde. :/
 
Freaky-Styley said:
Zas has always been capable of winning, but it requires an immaculate defense, as Omega has shown. Zas' biggest problem is with smart turtles and Hilde. :/
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The Zazalamel problems are broken tier chars; a character from mid to top can be handle even from a low tier, but only broken tier characters can beat broken characters... just for the record: Broken tiers = Hilde, Kilik, Algol, Amy...

Don't misunderstand me please; to me broken tier means a character who has stupidly advantage against any other character in the game. Example: Algol power to shoot bubbles, and Hilde's incredible range ring outs.

-Stryker-
 
Interesting Zasalamel info. I'm kinda thirsty to test him myself but his forums are so dead its hard to get good info. Secret PM's please on his combo's etc.

Stryker said:
Broken tiers = Hilde, Kilik, Algol, Amy...
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Hey Mr. I am offended! Lol just kidding!

In all seriousness though I think Kilik is the most balanced top character out of the top tiers in this game. He still has to work alot and execute appropriately with things like Asura. He can't blindly rinse and recycle like Hilde, his keepout isn't as great as Algol, he can't impose offense like Amy. He has to be reading and reacting to what the opponent does.
 
This debate about Asta reminds me of what Mick said when the game was first patched. He was saying how Asta was way better than what it looked like on paper. I think he was right. You can't break down Asta to a numbers game of risk/reward and damage/safety because he is a character that is exploiting you GUESSING wrong. If you start saying "what if" I break every throw and block every mid, jump every low and duck every high, then there would be no tiers and only Rock players.
 
i dont think Kilik is broken, he is VERY strong, but not broken... the asura is the only cheap move he got.

for me the overpowered chars are Hilde, Algol.....then, Voldo and Amy by far
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
This debate about Asta reminds me of what Mick said when the game was first patched. He was saying how Asta was way better than what it looked like on paper. I think he was right. You can't break down Asta to a numbers game of risk/reward and damage/safety because he is a character that is exploiting you GUESSING wrong. If you start saying "what if" I break every throw and block every mid, jump every low and duck every high, then there would be no tiers and only Rock players.
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This is what I'm saying. . .on paper/numbers it just doesn't look right. But in reality his tools are stupid and he controls you more than most will admit.
 
Since this game has been out for so long now... is my beautiful Tira still way down at the bottom, or is it just that nobodoy plays her like Rock and so we don't know?
 
Few play either of them seriously, so a lot of characters have what we call, "Zas-Syndrome".


Edit: Meaning a lot of people are ignorant of a large portion of the cast, and just write them off as whatever they please.
 
My people, long time no see, i respect everybodys opinions, so let me give you my opinion about zas, everybody says hes super unsafe, hes unsafe, but tell me what kind of damage yo can give him in hes unsafe moves, maybe AA or BB, so, let me tell you how hes game works,

You tried to rush in and atack, you are fuck, he will interrup your game so bad yo will get maybe half life, try to step your are fuck to, im not saying that he cant be steped he can but you have to be very careful, oooo i love the turtle people, he will guard crush yo so bad you will go throught his portal toilet, hes step is fucked up, i dont expect everybody to understand what im saying, now the people who got the chance to play me know exactly what im saying. So those zas players that dont know how to use him dont judge him just because learn how to use it and youl see how dangerous hes game is.


And remember this game is not base only on safe or unsafe, there is also Soul crush now, if you start digging in the supposedly top chars dont have a strong CF game or at least they dont have a strong game to leave you standing so you can take the hits that do the SC, dont see any killiks doing CF so im going to leave it there.


Something Unike you are the shit loved to play you men strong fuking kilik.



Please leave hilde out of the tier list she doesnt belong there , dont know where she belongs but is not in any tier list never seen a char so ridiculus as her in a Fighting game.


Hi to all the players i got to meet hope to see you soon. Special hello to, Nory, alphamale, LInk, RTD, French all of them, The texas shamp EP, ICE C edge,Shinrey, Brian, My man who uses lizard man that went whit me and lolo to eat(sorry man i dont remember your name right now),dream killer my bro from DR, LOLO mi hermanaso del alma, Jim. Well if i left somebody out let me know, hope to see you again soon.
 
Omega:

Thank u for the compliment. Also would u mind sending me a matchup list with numbers in a pm please. No explanations needed just numbers like 3:7, 4:6, 5:5, etc. I'm limiting the numbers to nothing more than 3:7 or 7:3 so people don't go overboard. Most appreciated.

NinjaCW:

This is in regards to Setsuka since I know we are both practicing her at the moment. Currently I have down all her combos and JF's etc. at like a 90% rate. It also seems that her JF's in combos are easier to pull off. The JF's seem to have a buffering window and because of it are easier to execute. The same goes for punishing with JF Umbrella against lows but its harder to do out in the open.

After utilizing her tools and noticing what she has though I stand corrected by some of the skeptics for her placement but she is still top 5. She isn't as good as I thought. I say that because all but two of her tools do good damage through non CH hunting. 1B:B and B+K series. The rest of her damaging tools are all CH and because of it she has to work alot harder to do damage (something like T5DR steve) and even then the damage ratio is topping out at 68 outside of 4A. 1B:B is a double edged sword as it can't be spammed due to being able to GI the second hit of the string.

Also the JF's in her combos are not needed at all and missing them will only sacrifice u 2-3-Damage. That's a plus. Her throw game is kinded lame to be honest. This is because her A+G throw does not work against Xianghua and Astaroth. Against mid weight characters teching left or right can cause the Setsuka to miss the Umbrella follow up due to camera changes causing another 50/50 mixup. I have not tested against all characters so this may only apply to some but that kinda leaves her with one throw option B+G if ur smart.

Basically what do u think of her so far.

Dewgong01:

I have matchup charts to figure that out but i'm kinda lazy in finishing sending out all the requests in pm's and some have not replied etc.
 
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