Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

Update: Dec 25 - Patience finally pays off?

SC is back! Get ready, fans! http://twitpic.com/3j16ui

Well I'm sure most of you were worried, as all the surprises we've seen so far have been Tekken related! But you were promised something spectacular, and now you finally get what you've been waiting for... Daishi Odashima, Lead designer for the Soulcalibur series has just opened up his own twitter!

Odashima-san used to be a tournament player in Japan back in the Soulcalibur 1 days! Since he's the new director of all things Soulcalibur at Namco, and by his own admission, has the final say on his team; you should follow him on twitter. Merry Christmas everyone?

I say again!! The day has finally come when I can tell you all about it. Soul Calibur is BACK !!

Update: Dec 23 - Katsuhiro Harada recently unveiled a new trailer and character for Tekken Tag Tournament 2. He also promises that more surprises are on the way:

Thanks for tons of comment !! OK next !!
I have something new to tweet about tomorrow night. so get ready!
(Not a footage. But important)

Update: Dec 21 - from Katsuhiro Harada's twitter:

Sorry guys I'm so busy now.
However, I want to show you something within the course of a few days...

Original Post - Namco-Bandai's Katsuhiro Harada has been having a lot of fun with his twitter account lately; their community manager FilthieRich is no different:

Looking and waiting for something special?
Make sure to continue following and tell your friends to stay tuned ....

What could this cryptic message possibly mean? Well that I couldn't really tell you. All I can say is that Namco-Bandai is probably planning some big surprises for the holiday, and you should pay attention to the twitter feeds. Just look at that face... you know he's up to no good!

We'll do our best to keep you updated with any relevant information here on 8WayRun.

 

OOF what defines a good character is tools. You can be the best damn player on the planet, but if your character simply lacks tools it doesn't matter, because the game becomes more about hoping the opponent fucks up, rather than you being good enough. Their is a limit to how bad a character can be before they hit a level of being obsolete in high level play. As bad as Zas and Talim are, they do have acute advantages that can be worked to compensate for ease of use with more straight forward balanced characters. Mina and Rock on the other hand have shit tools and are always in a bad position.

Also once again, why would you EVER pick Rock over Astaroth? Astaroth has almost everything he does and better plus much much more. It's not like comparing Cas to Soph or NM to Seig...Rock is just a Roll Tier Astaroth. In order to win you need you opponent to be significantly worse and make the mistakes for you and even then you have to play 50/50 on whether or not you're getting that damage anyway.

 

It's not even that OOF, the fact is when your hard work yields less than an amy or voldo player eventually it wears you down. Life may be unfair, but in gaming I hate to work more to gain less, while my opponent works less to gain more...fuck him and fuck his character.

A game that rewards skill has the most worth. In SC4 you don't need great skill to win, that makes the game unbalanced and not competitive worthy. That's why people spend countless hours in starcraft 2 forums complaining about balance. In FG communities it's different, people actually believe that winning=skill. If the game isn't balanced then we get more variables that can lead to winning. The more balanced a game the closer we get to, skill=winning.

And that type of rewarding gameplay is what everyone that's interested in competitive gaming wants.

 

I was joking about the Tekken grab system for SC5, by the way. I was saying it sarcastically to take a jab at a certain person in this thread who will be nameless for the moment.

In the end, whether Namco decides to focus on balance or not, I really just want them to keep the damn series fun.

 

pshh that was my ass lol. We already discussed that many many forums ago and i completely shifted my opinion at the end (which might I add was through a lot of logic on my end not the abysmal theories people were using to argue me. They can be right, but that doesn't mean the rationale wasn't fucking stupid people...they just got a lucky conclusion out of it...kinda like blindly selecting throws!). The command grabs having separate animation for say Astaroth was a very valid comment tho.

You need balance tho. It can be VERY unfun when unfair things are hindering your ability to play. IF things become unbalanced you start to see lack of diversity and it becomes stale because any cool way you may want to play the game is pushed out by a narrow superior method. See Hilde...you could have a character that uses all her moves and occasionally does a few charges and she would be awesome...but in reality your not going to be as effective as you would be just fishing for Doom Combos and using pokes to get people off you. There is an appeal to playing laughably low tier characters (I 2nd Rock), but it's NOT fun if I had to bring him to a serious match and fight Amy. I'd spend the whole match frustrated because I have so few answers and options that I have to guess my way out of every scenario and never feel in control.

 

People spend countless hours on Starcraft forums arguing about balance because there's a pretty good chance that if they can prove something is broken, the developers will fix it.

Just sayin

 

Go Odashima-san, the Greek community is present and rooting for SCV!!!

Using complex inputs as a means of balance is lazy design. Really, complex inputs should only be used when necessary (like to avoid move overlap) , which 99% of the time, they aren't. People like being able to use their movelists. This idea wouldn't help anything at competitive level, and casuals would be disappointed- so it's a bad idea.

A large part of SC's appeal to casuals is from the move the movelist isn't filled with overly hard moves like most other fighters. I'd even simplify Summon Suffering- and instead make the move more difficult to land.

I'd rather see VF-like balance myself. Would you be disappointed if Talim was a good character?

I don't mind JF's as much, as long as it's not vital- things like a small damage boost, better soul gauge damage, or slightly better frames (like making a move +2 on guard instead of 0, shouldn't make an unsafe move safe though).

I don't agree with this at all.
"Complex inputs" - in general - is something that separates dedicated players from casual players.

As for Setsuka in SCV, I'd like her to be as much as hard as she is now (heavy relied input character), so that no casual players will be able to use her easily when they pick her and she'd be mostly for advanced players (If used at FULL potential). Because Sets is da best evah!!! And part of what I like in this character (apart from appearance) is also the fact that she's not for the newbs!!!

 

This is true... look at Ivy in SC2. On the books, she is the best character in the game. She has a way to literally deal with every move in the game. But in order to use her as so, you needed to be pretty godlike.

Come to think about it, Ivy is now since 3 SoulCaliburs a really powerful character... I mean really powerful.

 

OOF: your post was the biggest piece of ass-bullshit i have ever read. Name ONE fucking tournament that we've had for SC4 that either Rock or Mina placed top 3. I'll wait :)

It doesn't matter how much "skill" you have. if you can make me guess wrong 7-8 times and i still beat you. it's OBVIOUSLY your character that's bad, not the player. It's like what KingAce says, Why should you work more to gain less?

You already fucked up your reputation for the shit you pulled post-FSAK, come on now, don't say stupid shit here too.

 

Go Odashima-san, the Greek community is present and rooting for SCV!!!



I don't agree with this at all.
"Complex inputs" - in general - is something that separates dedicated players from casual players.

As for Setsuka in SCV, I'd like her to be as much as hard as she is now (heavy relied input character), so that no casual players will be able to use her easily when they pick her and she'd be mostly for advanced players (If used at FULL potential). Because Sets is da best evah!!! And part of what I like in this character (apart from appearance) is also the fact that she's not for the newbs!!!

Why would you want people to not use your character? What that does is makes it more likely when you play, you run into Random Mitsurigi/Kilik #435908. I want to see more Setsukas- making her unnecessarily hard hurts that.

One thing we often forget in design is that it is just as important for our characters to be fun to play against as it is for them to be fun to play as. For chars to be fun to play against, they need to have some sort of weakness that can be used against them. That said, a vast skill difference would make anything unfun. I played OOF's Talim online once, and if I didn't know I was dealing with a top-tier character, I might have thought Talim was unfun to play against, when it was really just me getting curbstomped like the scrub I am. ^_^

You want to make Setsuka not newb friendly, without difficult input? What you can do is give her moves that require hitting on certain frames to get heavy damage, but otherwise deliver below average damage. Another way: punish strings that are very hard to hit-confirm and are unsafe if you don't finish the string, but require specific advantage to use (again with nice damage). Those sorts of things would make a character you would need a lot of knowledge to play, but would likely be high tier with a high learning curve.

 

Alastor:
I'm dedicated to playing my characters (NM & Raph) but I just can't those JFs out 100% of the time. Part of the draw to SC for me was the easy inputs so I'm hoping they revert to that.

What shows true dedication is when your character is made low tier and you still stick to them. Don't want people picking your character much? You won't have that problem when they are low tier.

 

SC5 ALREADY??? OGM not so soon please >.< Im still playing sc4

 

Come to think about it, Ivy is now since 3 SoulCaliburs a really powerful character... I mean really powerful.

IIRC there was an interview asking the project soul team what their favourite characters were. One of them said Ivy, and one of them said Astaroth. Notice why those 2 are never less than upper mid tier ? Guess no one likes rock lol

 

About what Alastor said and generally about "difficult moves" (eg: JFs based on speed or on timing or even other complicated moves like SS/CS) I can see a point here.

However, there are so many different cases of various JFs in SCIV that it gets somehow confusing on how they should treat them in SCV.

On the one hand simplifying JFs would make them easier to use for everyone. However noone can deny that "mastering" some very hard moves gives a completely different taste of satisfaction and visual pleasure for both the player and anyone that watches it.

For example (since it was mentioned), what do you think would happen IF Ivy's command throws got a more simplified input?
Easier to come out of course...
However, it wouldn't surprise me If they nerfed the damage and/or range of these throws since they would be more spammable (aka easier input). Is that a good thing? I think that these command throws should remain as they are. Or just make a JF version much MUCH stronger but very hard to do. But then we return to the start of the problem, because people will always want to "master" the hardest move whichever one it is.

Another example would be Setsuka (that I consider to be probably the hardest character to master in SCIV). She is very strong even without some of her JFs, however, If someone is able to perform her JFs whenever needed, in a very succefull rate, she becomes a monster. And to me, that makes a huge difference between various players.

Of course some of you have a point also. Because there is always a turn-off factor whenever a player feels that cannot get the most out of his character.

And then in SCIV, there are also some "unecessary/weird" cases of JFs that I don't even know why they made it like that...
Some of them being:
- Yun's 8KK:K (or something like that). More damage and taunting...
- Raphael's 33K:B. I believe it wouldn't hurt anyone If the normal version had the JF's properties.
- Tira's various JFs. Ok I'm aware of the changes of some properties of those JFs, but I feel it's a bit of a joke.
- Ivy's 5-hit JF. Either give properties like SC3 and before or don't, but make it REALLY easy If you want it to be like SCIV.
- Zasalamel's JFs. Could have better reward...
And the same can also be applied to many other characters' JFs, but not on Setsuka for example (and maybe Cervantes) because she gets rewarded very well, If you are able to do them.

However, I must say once again that JF difficulty is a bit complicated matter. And there are many different opinions on what should be easier/harder/riskier/rewarding/not rewarding/etc by many different players.

 

Well I definately support the idea of SCV (I think literally everyone does) I didn't play the other SCs so I dont have much say in mechanics or how the game should be balanced. And I understand everyone's desire for a better story, character creation, and better character designs... But people do have to do ALOT of work to make those improvements. Its a complicated process to make those things. If you had a better story, you'd have to have more cutscenes/animations which is work. The character creation system amazes me already. The amount of work that would have to be done modeling and making it so interactive is mind-boggeling to me.

What Im trying to say overall is that SCIV looks so good and smooth because they didn't put that effort towards the lacking parts. If you try to make each part of the game perfect, you would have to wait longer for the game itself.

I would definately encourage a Beta system to be tested by people who really know the game. This would definately include a lot of people from 8wr from what Ive seen. With your guys help and their ability to produce a damn good game, it could definately be possible to produce the same sleek SC with the in-depth fighting system all balanced with the hours of effort put in by you guys.

I think its definately possible to make SCV a great, best-selling game that everyone can enjoy... And thats about it really. :/​

 

Chickenwing, I'm not gonna bother arguing with you because it won't go anywhere. But all I gotta say is if I can make you guess wrong 7-8 times and you still beat me, then I'm not going to blame my character, I'm gonna blame myself as a player for not making you guess wrong 10 times instead.

And I didn't realize that exposing cheating and lying at a tournament ruins my reputation. ;)


The whole point of my post was describe my point of view on the benefits of tier discrepancies, those benefits being primarily for self improvement and greater satisfaction from winning. I didn't say that I want SC5 to be imbalanced. In fact I would prefer it to be more balanced because that is what the majority want and would cause less bickering. I've just learned to appreciate certain aspects of the imbalances that I've grown accustomed to in SC.

I'm still baffled by how people think Rock and Mina can't win tournaments. Maybe not an American Rock or Mina since it's becoming clear to me that most Americans have a scrub mentality. Probably only a Korean at this point. If TALIM can get second at Nationals with most of the top players there, then it is not impossible for Rock or Mina. Just because you won't ever see it happen doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

About what Alastor said and generally about "difficult moves" (eg: JFs based on speed or on timing or even other complicated moves like SS/CS) I can see a point here.

However, there are so many different cases of various JFs in SCIV that it gets somehow confusing on how they should treat them in SCV.

On the one hand simplifying JFs would make them easier to use for everyone. However noone can deny that "mastering" some very hard moves gives a completely different taste of satisfaction and visual pleasure for both the player and anyone that watches it.

For example (since it was mentioned), what do you think would happen IF Ivy's command throws got a more simplified input?
Easier to come out of course...
However, it wouldn't surprise me If they nerfed the damage and/or range of these throws since they would be more spammable (aka easier input). Is that a good thing? I think that these command throws should remain as they are. Or just make a JF version much MUCH stronger but very hard to do. But then we return to the start of the problem, because people will always want to "master" the hardest move whichever one it is.

Another example would be Setsuka (that I consider to be probably the hardest character to master in SCIV). She is very strong even without some of her JFs, however, If someone is able to perform her JFs whenever needed, in a very succefull rate, she becomes a monster. And to me, that makes a huge difference between various players.

Of course some of you have a point also. Because there is always a turn-off factor whenever a player feels that cannot get the most out of his character.

And then in SCIV, there are also some "unecessary/weird" cases of JFs that I don't even know why they made it like that...
Some of them being:
- Yun's 8KK:K (or something like that). More damage and taunting...

However, I must say once again that JF difficulty is a bit complicated matter. And there are many different opinions on what should be easier/harder/riskier/rewarding/not rewarding/etc by many different players.

Sorry to quote en entire long post, but lots of relevant points.

a) On SS/CS for Ivy. What I would do.
Half-Circle command. I would borrow from VF5 and give a benefit for "fastest input" like what Wolf had for his Giant Swing. With the fastest input, the nerfs to the move would be removed.

Yunsung- JF's 8KKK. Adding "coolness" to a move, and some damage, is a good use of JF in my eyes. It's something casuals can aim for, without adding a vast amount of difficulty to the character

To me at least, good JF design is something that a skilled player will work in if they pick a character, but only after they get the basics- and should only become necessary at high-end tourney level. It needs to be something a scrub can get lucky on once in a blue moon also, so they know it's there, and think "oh , that's neat, how do I get this more often?" This is the way I feel about execution in general- I despise games where I feel like I can only play one character because the execution is so damn hard initially, and I'd have to put in 10-20 hours before I can play the game. Why should I do that when I can play something else?

The one thing you'd definitely see if you simplified Ivy's command grabs, is a lot more Ivy's at launch, a few of which would seriously master the character over time, and we'd benefit by seeing a wider variety of characters when we play. This is why I think eased movelist execution is awesome- it really does bring the variety, which makes playing more fun. You make a character hard to play, you won't see that character much.

As for Rock/Mina- I can see why OOF thinks they can win. 90% of the tournaments he enters, he's the best person there by enough that he COULD win with any character. When a low tier char wins a tourney, usually it's means one of two things

a) The player would have won no matter what
b) The game is pretty well-balanced, see VF5 with Chibita winning SBO with Lion.

 

IIRC there was an interview asking the project soul team what their favourite characters were. One of them said Ivy, and one of them said Astaroth. Notice why those 2 are never less than upper mid tier ? Guess no one likes rock lol

Yeah, i remember that. But i thought Rock was quite good in SCIII. But yeah, in SCIV, he is really a big letdown....

 

As for Rock/Mina- I can see why OOF thinks they can win. 90% of the tournaments he enters, he's the best person there by enough that he COULD win with any character.

No, that's not my reason for believing that it is possible for Rock/Mina to win. I've learned Rock, I understand his mechanics and the mind game potential that he has. He isn't hopeless, he just requires a highly skilled and dedicated player to win, just like Kura with Talim. And I've fought many great Mina players. I actually have to think to beat them. These characters are underrated due to so many people who don't use them, that just go with the popular opinion that they are garbage (I myself once thought Rock was garbage until I learned him), and then there are the players that use them but can't win with them so they blame the character.

Right now I find Dampierre in SCBD to be the most fun character for me out of the entire cast (even more fun than Vader), and I'm planning to use him in SC5, regardless of what tier he will be. And I'll be damned if he is "sc4 rock tier" and people tell me that I wont win with him. I'm not gonna blame the character, and I'm gonna prove people wrong. Just like how I mained Talim in SC3 regardless of her being one of the worst in the game. To me blaming the character for your inability to win is scrub mentality, at least in SC.

 

The arcades should be used primarily to beta-test for the console version. On consoles you are limited to two patches, so it would be better to get the balance right first. Having a good arcade port will also generate buzz for console sales, like what happened with SF4. Arcades are in a decline, even in Japan though, so they shouldn't be the main focus. You can also make money through DLC on console with costume parts like you did with SC4. I was sort of disappointed that they didn't make more outfits.

I think the important thing with SCV gameplay is to make it good without making it like every other fighter. Soul Calibur's core features are manuevering, guard impact, and simple execution for the most part. I don't think everyone will agree with this- but I think a large part of SC's appeal, is that you don't really have a large memorization or execution component (outside of just frames and a couple of overhard moves such as Summon Suffering) before you get to the strategic side of the game.

I know Namco isn't going to listen to a random scrub, but if I was going to direct a Soul Calibur game, this approach is how I'd do it.

- Single player would have its main focus be on customizations. I would keep how it was done with SC4, but I would make more, much more, and that would be my DLC focus. I would make sure that the custom souls would be IDENTICAL to the real characters, so they would be tourney legal without problems.

- Instead of guest characters, I would have guest artists designing costumes/characters. Those would be DLC. Costume DLC that can be used on all characters should sell well, and doesn't offend DLC-haters. I wouldn't put it on the disk though, even if it was designed beforehand.

- Gameplay: I would go on the general principles of manuevering (8WR would be good), balance, GI (make it more effective), and simplicity (I'd ease the execution on the hardest moves such as Summon Suffering, balancing them out in different ways). With 8WR and GI being good, I could see turtling becoming an issue , so I'd buff throws slightly by giving them some tracking, having more delayable moves, and by giving grappler chars like Rock G+K throws that need a K break.
Balance would be the tricky part, and the public beta test that is an arcade version is how I'd handle that if I was designing things. The arcade version would have none of the single-player stuff though

- I'd make netcode the best I could. SF4 quality at worst, VF5 quality would be my goal. I'd try to have longish input buffers to help the netcode out, as some of the problem SC4 had with netcode was short input buffers.

Late, but I was reading through this thread, and this is one of the BEST posts I've seen so far. Agree with everything

They also need to make moves like your AAs, BBs, or like Xianghua's aK,K and other stuff HIT CONFIRMABLE. To me it doesn't really make since not to, and unless its GI'able for the second+ hit (which usually ISN'T the case, from my standpoint), the only reason to have to choose between different uses of your combo moves is from a frame standpoint, and usually the difference is negligable. I think things like this will really help with the mixup game, especially for poking characters like Talim, Xianghua, Raphael, and Seung Mina.

They also need to fix the guarding frames, because that will help decrease much of the SCIV scrubbery by making moves easier to punish. If GI's remain difficult in V as they are in IV, this point will be even more important in my opinion. Also, for lower tier characters (AND my girl Xianghua), why is half of their movelist negative ON HIT? Even on CH or for Guard Breaking moves? Why should we be punished for guessing correctly? I think this was the single, biggest problem in SCIV, and I keep hearing from alot of people that this point was why alot of people didn't understand the game.

Other than that, I LOVE SCIV. Its not perfect, and their are alot of other things I don't like about it, but Namco did get alot of things right with this game. Even now, with maybe the exception of VF5 (which is 5 years old, from an arcade standpoint), SC4 is the best looking fighting game of this generation, hands down. The cast is relatively balanced, and sits on a foundation only possibly surpassed by SC2 in the series. Best of all the game is fun and unique, and not another "me-too-street-fighter" like MK9 and MvC3 (though I'm hyped for MvC). Face it, a new SC is good news, because at the end of the day, 3D fighters are sorely lacking right now, and SC is one of the best. The only thing that beats it out to me is VF.

On a side note, I hope theirs alot more SC tournaments coming up this new year, cause I want to get out and play more of you


[/longrant]

 

No, that's not my reason for believing that it is possible for Rock/Mina to win. I've learned Rock, I understand his mechanics and the mind game potential that he has. He isn't hopeless, he just requires a highly skilled and dedicated player to win, just like Kura with Talim. And I've fought many great Mina players. I actually have to think to beat them. These characters are underrated due to so many people who don't use them, that just go with the popular opinion that they are garbage (I myself once thought Rock was garbage until I learned him), and then there are the players that use them but can't win with them so they blame the character.

Right now I find Dampierre in SCBD to be the most fun character for me out of the entire cast (even more fun than Vader), and I'm planning to use him in SC5, regardless of what tier he will be. And I'll be damned if he is "sc4 rock tier" and people tell me that I wont win with him. I'm not gonna blame the character, and I'm gonna prove people wrong. Just like how I mained Talim in SC3 regardless of her being one of the worst in the game. To me blaming the character for your inability to win is scrub mentality, at least in SC.

Unfortunately those are just empty words OOF. Tiers matter and so does balance stating other words might make you look macho or whatever but it's uneducated and retarded.

First of all character knowledge plays a huge role especially early on in a games life. I used to think Maxi was absurdly good, I got my ass beat so bad by a maxi player I can still feel the anxiety of those losses. But when I finally learned maxi's frames...lol it's pathetic.

Most of the wins players get early on are out of ignorance, the more we play, experience and learn the game, tiers become more and more self evident. The kura was a great player to begin with, he's reaction is way better than your best NA players, same with Omega, however we must take into a count how much did people know about Zas or Talim back then?

Fact is OOF you won't win any SC4 tournament with Mina or Rock, if you do I will give you money. You might get past some people out of your skill alone, but people close to your skill will demolish you more than they would have otherwise, why? Cause the tools you picked are ineffective.