When did Ivy become hilde I mean, whats with all the nerf request? An is 1BB+K that bad? About the stance lock only take it away if the moves dont force stance change especailly when the stance change isnt benifical. 90% of BD Ivy gameplay shouldnt not be implemnted in SC5 alot the nerfs just mad her gameplay unessicarly worse(The good stuff that i listed way back on pg 1-2 could come about though).
SC5 'Ivy' Story/Possibilities/Speculation
- Thread starter Davo87
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Ring
Lay still now
Nerf because she's winning too much = too strong in ppl eyes. Funny thing is the community banned a character that even though was super strong, wasn't actually winning much, if anything at all.
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
A lot of people just don't know how to fight Ivy. It's ignorance to the character. Any Ivy player can tell you she has a mix of weaknesses and strengths and is fairly balanced with issue on SW A+B glitch. She doesn't do "everything" as people seem to believe. And yes....BD Ivy is not something I want to see in SC 5. I'm majorly opposed to every single one of those nerfs including the limitations on stance shifting (terrible idea!!!).
She wins a lot because the players using her are just that good. It's nothing like Hilde where the character did all the work for you. As well Hilde was not very popular since people avoided her out of either respect for competitive play or distaste for the gimick, so she didn't have a large pool of top players using her. There were some, but not many, lessening her chances of winning events often. As well she is a new character with odd mechanics and there were not many veterans rushing to play her as we see Ivy veterans returning to Ivy and bring past skills with them.
She wins a lot because the players using her are just that good. It's nothing like Hilde where the character did all the work for you. As well Hilde was not very popular since people avoided her out of either respect for competitive play or distaste for the gimick, so she didn't have a large pool of top players using her. There were some, but not many, lessening her chances of winning events often. As well she is a new character with odd mechanics and there were not many veterans rushing to play her as we see Ivy veterans returning to Ivy and bring past skills with them.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
christ listen to yourself
If there is one character with 3 possible stances (being short range, mid range and long range).. give one good reason for why her close range stance should not be outclassed by short(or barely mid) range characters? Favouritism does not count as a logical reason
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
Couldn't agree more. Ivy should be outclassed my all of the short reach characters when shes AT SHORT REACH. You know why? Cas shes got plenty of goods in mid/long range that compensate.
Theoretically, Ivy should be great at long range, average at mid range, and crappy at short range. This would be a balanced IVY. As it is right now, she's great at all ranges. WTF namco. In Sc2 she was Overpowered, in Sc3 she was garbage, and now in SC4 she is once again Overpowered. The fact that Namco practically reinvents her every game speaks volumes about their difficulty to balance her. Because if she was balanced from the beginning, there would be no need to change her so drastically. It tells me that they can't decide what to do with her.
Dani_Hungerford
[09] Warrior
Ivy needs better punishing to. The main stance for her punishing is SW, but coil is by far her most well balanced stance. Her coil punishes are usually AA, 6K, B, K, 2A, 1B B+K. I say fix her CL AA and make it Adv on hit, it's plus 0 on hit.
Nerfs I'm willing to put up with, an uglier costume, bad side step but same back step, and that's about all. I think she's in her prime right now, besides SC2.
Also give Ivy better back step in WP.
Nerfs I'm willing to put up with, an uglier costume, bad side step but same back step, and that's about all. I think she's in her prime right now, besides SC2.
Also give Ivy better back step in WP.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
herp derp
WuHT
Premium Moderator
you realize my post has a specific quote in it ?? I even trimmed it because I was addressing a specific point about someone's commenting (or at worse complaining) how she was outclassed by X and amy up close.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
yep, you're right. reading comprehension fail.
Ring
Lay still now
If someone can win vs some of the best players out there using only the sweep, BB, A+B and throws (as seen it Cannes just recently) it doesn't necessarily mean she outclasses other characters at short range. I think people got used to the fact that CL/WP has little to no positive frames on hit and no good lows, which isn't the case for SW, and that's why Sword appears to be "too good".
And still making the same mistake by defining her a a perfect character only because she can operate at any range, not including limitations/handicaps for each stance.
I believe it's safe to say that now it's the exact opposite.
You don't even know what you are asking for. WP was initially devoid of frame advantages on hit and made very punishable and slow in sake of balance, to compensate for the range and SG damage. Making this stance great (as of now, it's nowhere near being great) would be way too much for other characters to handle.
And still making the same mistake by defining her a a perfect character only because she can operate at any range, not including limitations/handicaps for each stance.
I believe it's safe to say that now it's the exact opposite.
You don't even know what you are asking for. WP was initially devoid of frame advantages on hit and made very punishable and slow in sake of balance, to compensate for the range and SG damage. Making this stance great (as of now, it's nowhere near being great) would be way too much for other characters to handle.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
hahahah, I was very disappointed to see that at cannes. It's sad how this community is so dead and out of practice that you can win with that stuff.
The people i used to play with online didn't even fall for those things after a few months. 1B, B+K is great, but people spam it so much and nobody really adapts to it. It's not like the second part has tracking like sophitia's BB if you just keep 8wayrunning.
KrayzieCD
[11] Champion
I agree with a lot of the stuff you said except one thing: Ivy was NOT garbage in SC3. Take it from a guy who played many many games with Linkrkc.
Ring
Lay still now
Nofacekill3r said:
It's probably the fact that they have to step/8wr to avoid it and then you can fish for SS killers or different stuff. This seems to be too strong for a lot of people from my experience. But other than that it just seems character ignorance, at least to me. Some people just refuse to learn her and prefer to complain instead of finding solutions.
@Krayzie, it was the player, not the character. Ivy in SC3 was definitely garbage. And Link was an exeptional player back then. He was even the first one to complain about how bad she is haha =P now those were the days. Notice how he was the only Ivy player out there who was winning tourneys with Ivy. Neither me or Malek had that much success, even though we were playing PAL version with a stronger Ivy. We couldn't get past X for life.
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
Umm listen to yourself...
- Where the hell did I say ONLY Amy and X?
- Where did I say she should outclass other close range fighters?
Ivy's SW mode is strong but it does have weaknesses other characters dont suffer.
- Ivy has a very weak punish game in the stance unless you can get launcher in.
- She has few good anti step moves: AA/2A suffer short range and low damage potential and 66A and 22K are decent but unsafe.
- Not many attacks cover a good range and she's vulnerable to a lot of back step attacks unless she devoted to something to cover it such as 2/3B+K.
- She has a weak movement beyond forward step in this stance, thus limiting whiff punishes.
- She has few options to respond to spacing while in the SW and must shift stance to access those answers, missing potential opportunities to punish or take advantage
KrayzieCD
[11] Champion
X was a broken ass bitch in SC3, you can't use that as a reason to say why Ivy was garbage. You can say that she wasn't as strong as she was in SC2 or now in SC4, fine, but I refuse to agree that she was garbage. I witnessed people in the later days of SC3 using Ivy getting by without doing a single SS/CS. 44A, 44B, best 2A in the game IMO, excellent step, nasty combos, etc. and actually placing well in tourneys. To say she was garbage in 3 has got to be an insult to people who mained Talim in SC2. Now SHE became garbage in SC3. Ivy wasn't as strong as her SC2 form (thank the Lord) but she was still a viable character.
Ring
Lay still now
No, the reason why I think she was that bad is because the ammount of effort needed to win a match with her, compared to other good characters (not only X), had to be ridiculous. In the end, all she had was CS/SS, a few pokes and the sweep. She had no damage on NH whatsoever except FC 1B maybe. Like 80% of her moveset was almost useless and her gameplay consisted mostly of pokes and throws. Ivy players had to take advantage of the infamous 2P bug with double 2B+K damage to keep up with other characters in terms od damage and to compensate for other bugs like CS glitch.
I agree that there were worse characters, but Ivy was nowhere near top and high-mid crew, especially difficult when playing vs someone who knew her and was able to break CS/SS (which being i15 was super good). Still, although those times were really frustrating for me and I there were many moments where I felt completely powerless, I still miss those days and those discussions we had on sc.com.
franman
[13] Hero
Here's something I got to say. Namco is already putting more into combos in SC4 and Ivy is no exception. She has so many set-ups that can lead to pulling off damaging combos even some of the easiest combos a player can perform by Ivy players can cause so much damage.
So a solution I say is give all characters the ability to Air Control. But there's another thing I want to address here, if you jump at the same time Ivy hits you with some sorta vertical (I think it's the one that puts you in stun) then she can do a 214K follow-up. I think jumping at the same time Ivy does 7_8_9B in sword state also gives her the same follow-up. So rly what's the point of her doing an attack move that grabs ppl from the air.
214B I can accept the step, but aside from the speed it's mainly the tracking that I don't think is necessary. Even if it's heavily punishable, think of other characters that have such a move that can be greatly punished whether blocked or stepped. I'm glad the BD version has taken this direction.
Also 7_8_9B, sure it's fast in swords state and can be punishable but not easily punishable. Hell on CH it gives Ivy a big combo setup. So honestly if you want this to maintain that way make it even more punishable.
So a solution I say is give all characters the ability to Air Control. But there's another thing I want to address here, if you jump at the same time Ivy hits you with some sorta vertical (I think it's the one that puts you in stun) then she can do a 214K follow-up. I think jumping at the same time Ivy does 7_8_9B in sword state also gives her the same follow-up. So rly what's the point of her doing an attack move that grabs ppl from the air.
214B I can accept the step, but aside from the speed it's mainly the tracking that I don't think is necessary. Even if it's heavily punishable, think of other characters that have such a move that can be greatly punished whether blocked or stepped. I'm glad the BD version has taken this direction.
Also 7_8_9B, sure it's fast in swords state and can be punishable but not easily punishable. Hell on CH it gives Ivy a big combo setup. So honestly if you want this to maintain that way make it even more punishable.
Eli123s
when it rains, it pours
9B is fine the way it is. It just need to only be in SW. Because this move is in every stance, Ivy can spam it, and play brainlessly. It should be like BD where you can only do it in SW. But they should make 9B and 2A combo, like in SC3.
214 B is strong, but it does have its drawbacks. If someone is stepping/8wayrunning, and Ivy does 214B, Ivy will end up in BT. I find it odd franman, the character you use has 44B; a move that evades and tracks, so don't complain :P
In BD every character loses there tracking ability so if 214B gets nerfed thats fine.
One thing that need to change is all kick moves need to be available in every stance.
Also give back SC3 FC 3K
And SC3 44A, and 1A
214 B is strong, but it does have its drawbacks. If someone is stepping/8wayrunning, and Ivy does 214B, Ivy will end up in BT. I find it odd franman, the character you use has 44B; a move that evades and tracks, so don't complain :P
In BD every character loses there tracking ability so if 214B gets nerfed thats fine.
One thing that need to change is all kick moves need to be available in every stance.
Also give back SC3 FC 3K
And SC3 44A, and 1A
franman
[13] Hero
Ya you've told me this, but if the Ivy players were to prefer otherwise (ie. is in every stance) then make it more punishable or slow it down.
O plz I'm just getting started... yes Cervy's 44B tracks clockwise as would Ivy's 214B but difference is that Ivy's 214B is way too fast.
And speaking of complainers being ignorant... I can just say same for the fan boys who support the dominatrix too much giving them the excuse to defend every aspect of her. If anything this thread needs is not just Ivy players but also players who fought and deal against her to give their input.
On the bright side of things at least there are some Ivy players here that are reasonable. Eli being one of them.
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
I would LOVE to have SW 1K available in CL and WP, but for balance it wouldn't combo into CH 1KB.
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