Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

Update: Dec 25 - Patience finally pays off?

SC is back! Get ready, fans! http://twitpic.com/3j16ui

Well I'm sure most of you were worried, as all the surprises we've seen so far have been Tekken related! But you were promised something spectacular, and now you finally get what you've been waiting for... Daishi Odashima, Lead designer for the Soulcalibur series has just opened up his own twitter!

Odashima-san used to be a tournament player in Japan back in the Soulcalibur 1 days! Since he's the new director of all things Soulcalibur at Namco, and by his own admission, has the final say on his team; you should follow him on twitter. Merry Christmas everyone?

I say again!! The day has finally come when I can tell you all about it. Soul Calibur is BACK !!

Update: Dec 23 - Katsuhiro Harada recently unveiled a new trailer and character for Tekken Tag Tournament 2. He also promises that more surprises are on the way:

Thanks for tons of comment !! OK next !!
I have something new to tweet about tomorrow night. so get ready!
(Not a footage. But important)

Update: Dec 21 - from Katsuhiro Harada's twitter:

Sorry guys I'm so busy now.
However, I want to show you something within the course of a few days...

Original Post - Namco-Bandai's Katsuhiro Harada has been having a lot of fun with his twitter account lately; their community manager FilthieRich is no different:

Looking and waiting for something special?
Make sure to continue following and tell your friends to stay tuned ....

What could this cryptic message possibly mean? Well that I couldn't really tell you. All I can say is that Namco-Bandai is probably planning some big surprises for the holiday, and you should pay attention to the twitter feeds. Just look at that face... you know he's up to no good!

We'll do our best to keep you updated with any relevant information here on 8WayRun.

 

Any character that can get on the ground at will is likely at an advantage against Hilde. Bonus points if you can punish a blocked 2K well. SW 44K also mostly negates charge use since she's airborne. So yeah. SW 44K is a ridiculously good move against Hilde. All you need to do is get a life lead and roll around like an idiot. Hilde has no good moves to hit grounded people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsmJvPYBKeE

 

I'm not a fan of SCC because it seems kind of contrived (as in why isn't there a natural G cancel to the move in the first place). I can understand that going back to neutral with soul charge is tremendously more powerful than having moves cancel into a stance, but I guess that was the direction SC4 was taken.

 

How many characters are really that just frame heavy in this game? I like the idea of having some characters that require execution. I don't want to go and take away just frames. Let there be some characters who are like that, and let people choose the character that bests fits their play style.

Plus it's not like just frames are on the level of what 1 frame links are in Street Fighter where you need to cheat the system by plinking just to execute them.

Actually, i really want to play Carvy again, but like i said, i hate just frame heavy chars. So i do hope that Cervy is at least a bit easier to learn in the next installment.

But if the SCV team likes those JF that much, i can deal with it i guess...

VF moves are really no more complicated then SC moves. In fact, in many cases, they're less complicated.
The application of said moves correctly can be a lot more complex/difficult though. VF and SC are both proof that complex controls are not needed to have depth. That doesn't mean applying moves in VF can't be difficult, but it's often timing based, and more importantly knowledge base. That said, VF does have a few overcomplex moves, just like SC.

You know, when i played VF4 years ago i really had the impression that VF is more complicated and execution heavy than SC games are. Especially Akira...

As for having characters require execution, all characters do require it already. It's not like you're just hitting buttons. What people are complaining about (At least me) are the characters that require execution that is harder then it should be, for no logical reason. My belief is that a mediocre player should be able to perform a character's entire movelist with an hour's practice at most, with the exception of JF's. Once you know the moves, then you can learn the game. What's the point of making people who are learning struggle with the game controls just because they like the wrong character? Any other genre this would be rightfully ridiculed as poor design. Make them struggle with learning how to use what they learned instead.

This sounds logical imo. I fully agree.

 

Any character that can get on the ground at will is likely at an advantage against Hilde. Bonus points if you can punish a blocked 2K well. SW 44K also mostly negates charge use since she's airborne. So yeah. SW 44K is a ridiculously good move against Hilde. All you need to do is get a life lead and roll around like an idiot. Hilde has no good moves to hit grounded people.

If you think that Hilde doesn't have her own strategy against any other character's VERY specific strategies (against her), then you are completely mistaken. The fact that "most" Hilde players didn't usually bother with such kind of strategies, was mostly because there usually was little reason to do it (for obvious reasons).

Yes, I agree that probably Ivy and some other characters (Amy, Kilik etc) may have some tools to counter Hilde's tactics, but I think that it's still too much to say that they have an advantage over her.

 

Well I'm glad you at least agree that most people are unwilling to put unorthodox strategies into play and thus needless bitching ensues.

 

no one said we weren't using unorthodox play to beat her. It would just be nice to use the other 80% of our options we normally can try since we have room for err. You can't just spam 44K ftw.

 

Actually, i really want to play Carvy again, but like i said, i hate just frame heavy chars. So i do hope that Cervy is at least a bit easier to learn in the next installment.

Cervy has 3 JFs which were done poorly.

1- CH3B:B for the most part I find useless; only time I find it useful is when you want to ring someone out from a distance but then again so can Ch3B 8A+B :/

2- 6A+B:B pretty much gives you the same level of unsafeness to the regular version on block and on hit it doesn't really do much other than give slightly more damage.

3-B+G:B the damage is pretty decent; you're talking 64dmg; however, most of the time the iTS part whiffs leaving you in extreme disadvantage.

I guess getting rid of these maybe one of the ways of making Cervy easier to learn since you hate Just Frame Heavy characters; I'm for that too but I can also go for some fixation upon those three.

I do think that Cervy should have more JFs based on the 214 setup I don't think that will be a problem for you at least. If you can do iGDR, then you should have no problem doing iTS as well as doing any instant 214 +any button. Only exception maybe iTP.

 

And Oof while I agree 100% with this thought process, I think that it's hard to make a legit case for it based on the fact that it hasn't been done yet. If Kura had gotten 1st at Nats with Talim (and only Talim) or Omega getting 1st at Evo with Zas then that would be real proof.

Lack of proof is not proof either. The fact that it hasn't happened doesn't prove that it is impossible. So it's not like the opposing side has a legit case either.

And to me the fact that Kura got to second using only Talim (he tried other characters only after I told him to in the grand finals) and the fact that Omega got to top 8 with Zas at Evo says enough for me already.

And I don't care about proving anything anyways, I'm just stating my opinion on these matters. I'm not hoping for an imbalanced SC5. I'd rather have it as balanced as possible. I'm just expressing my views on the imbalances that I've learned to appreciate in the past couple of SC games. Maybe I'm just too positive and optimistic for my own good?

 

Lack of proof is not proof either. The fact that it hasn't happened doesn't prove that it is impossible. So it's not like the opposing side has a legit case either.

And to me the fact that Kura got to second using only Talim (he tried other characters only after I told him to in the grand finals) and the fact that Omega got to top 8 with Zas at Evo says enough for me already.

And I don't care about proving anything anyways, I'm just stating my opinion on these matters. I'm not hoping for an imbalanced SC5. I'd rather have it as balanced as possible. I'm just expressing my views on the imbalances that I've learned to appreciate in the past couple of SC games. Maybe I'm just too positive and optimistic for my own good?

Hardly, I remember my argument with you about VC on caliburforums. You were like, "I want it unban because it gives me a bigger challenge when I fight against it." Something to that degree. So it's just your thinking that I find warped.

Nobody said it was impossible to win a tournament with a low tier character. What we're saying is that it's next to impossible to do it consistently. Character ignorance plays a major role in winning the first few, but even amy and voldo players get read over time, someone using a low tier character with fewer tools isn't as likely to dorminate. This is especially true when the game is 2 plus years old and we know so much about most characters.

You don't need a character to be low tier just to have a challenge getting wins. Pick up Kilik, try and win a tournament with Kilik. He's considered top tier, how many players have dominated with him? Very few, you want to know why? Because he's a counter styled character with a few rush down tools. Kilik is uber defensive outside of his FOTD. So despite what he looks like in practice, most people just don't have the patience or the reaction to make him work consistently.

 

Nah, totally serious. I've tried to explain this to some people but few actually agree with me.

In a way it helps explain why trying to work a "mind-game" against a random spammer doesn't work. Or when people who don't know about frame traps interrupt your followup move out of major disadvantage.

Basically no fear = no hesitation = no confusion.

I can't believe I have to explain this, but I'm better than you so whatever.

Okay, when I put the opponent into a mixup position, they don't necessarily make a guess out of fear. Sometimes they're so sure of making the incorrect guess that they even feel they're being clever by committing to it. Then they find out they were wrong. That is a mind game.

Also, mind games do not apply to button mashers since they are not playing by the rules of the game. They have no concept of advantage and disadvantage. One must only punish them for not knowing the game. No mind game required.

 

Cervy has 3 JFs which were done poorly.

1- CH3B:B for the most part I find useless; only time I find it useful is when you want to ring someone out from a distance but then again so can Ch3B 8A+B :/

2- 6A+B:B pretty much gives you the same level of unsafeness to the regular version on block and on hit it doesn't really do much other than give slightly more damage.

3-B+G:B the damage is pretty decent; you're talking 64dmg; however, most of the time the iTS part whiffs leaving you in extreme disadvantage.

I guess getting rid of these may is one of the ways of making Cervy easier to learn since you hate Just Frame Heavy characters; I'm for that too but I can also go for some fixation upon those three.

I do think that Cervy should have more JFs based on the 214 setup I don't think that will be a problem for you at least. If you can do iGDR, then you should have no problem doing iTS as well as doing any instanct 214 +any button. Only exception maybe iTP.

That´s exactly what i don´t like about some SCIV JF-moves too. Sometimes they are not worth it imo. I mean you put so much time in learning specific moves and their JF-versions, but it doesn´t pay off. That´s my problem with SCIV Cervy too.

But yeah nothing against mutliple JF moves out of the 214 input. That would be SC(DC) Cervy stile all over again. ^^

 

Lack of proof is not proof either. The fact that it hasn't happened doesn't prove that it is impossible. So it's not like the opposing side has a legit case either.

Did you know we can search the north pole over and over for Santa Claus and still not find him? With your logic it's still "possible" that he exists because our "lack of proof" isn't a legit case.

Seriously, who elected OOF worthy of my time? This is just stupid.

 

*points at RTD*

players win tournaments, not characters. hilde aside, sc4 is pretty damn balanced. the gap between even...say...rock and ivy isn't very big. any character can win and there isn't any huge hurdle to overcome.

 

The gap between Rock and Ivy.

lololoolol

Rock isn't more fun to play because he's bad, it just happens to be that the things that make him fun to play are also bad. There's no reason that he couldn't have the same fun tools he has now, but without the terrible. Same with Mina.

 

*points at RTD*

Point all you want. Apprentice wasn't bad to begin with. I also have to laugh at the gap between Ivy and Rock not being difficult to overcome as you say.

Damn. What are you guys on? Should I make a blog called 8WayDumb?

 

The name of this thread should be changed to Looking and Waiting for Something to Argue About.

Players win tournaments, but not with characters that are straight up ass. Plus Apprentice is not ass, nor did Kura or Omega come in 1st at EVO/NATS. Stop with the theory fighter.

I also don't see these types of arguments in other fighting games. You don't see anybody trying to grind it out with Dan or Hakan in SSF4. Is anybody winning with Yoshimitsu in Tekken 6? Nope. Why? People realize that they are hot garbage and use someone else.

Plus the tournament format isn't conducive to garbage characters winning consistently. Maybe if the format was single elimination, but not with double elimination giving you a second opportunity to play and with players having the opportunity to adapt and or counter pick.

I wish I could go back and see the brackets for EVO 09, but you also have to consider whether the opponent knows the match up. And in the end, you can only go but so far with characters that are ass. Eventually, you will encounter someone who is better than you, knows the match up, or uses a better character. Pick two of those conditions or all three, and you are already in a bad position with alot to overcome. Why do you think people were pulling Hilde out of their ass if that wasn't the case? Have you seen anyone else do much with Zasalamel since EVO? Nope. Rock? Hell naw. Why? Because people are trying to win.

My primary goal in tournaments is to have fun and support the community, so I try to fuck up people with my favorite character. If my primary goal was to win and my character was ass, then I would do whatever that I could that was within the rules to put myself in the best possible position to win, because in the end, that's what tournament play is all about. Why do you think so much counter picking goes on in Street Fighter? Why do you think Justin Wong switched to Cammy instead of sticking with Rufus against Wolfkrone at NEC? Why do you think Daigo went to Guile against Mago's Fei Long at Canada Cup after Mago broke a foot off in his ass the week or so prior GodsGarden2 which uses a character lock? Because bitches are trying to win and get paid, plus the difference between coming in first instead of second is huge.

Lastly, there's going to be a character or a couple of characters in every fighting game not named Virtua Fighter who just don't have the tools to win consistently. Unless you're developing the game itself, that's not going to change. And unless your character becomes better with some patch or update, then your character is not going to change. Plus people are going to use the top characters in any fighting game, so if you are going to use someone who is ass, then your options are to either seriously outplay your opponent or use a character that gives you a better opportunity to win. You should be doing whatever it takes to win if that's your primary goal.

 

Vincent, are you really trying to prove your point with such a silly Santa Claus example? Really. Anyways I'll just use your logic against Zero effect on you and say that I'm better than you, so whatever. :)

Malice, that post is a primary example of the mentality that I've seen most Americans have and the exact reason why you don't see those characters being used much or people excelling with them, and people tier whoring instead. At Nats and Evo I was hanging out with Kura and Seung Cheul the most and I can tell you they did not have this type of mentality, and they were consistently doing very well against players with Yun and Talim. There's a reason those two Koreans were more skilled at the game than 99% of Americans, and it's not because of race, but their mentality when it comes to the game. Hell Kura was even planning on only using Talim against Thugish in the gf's as well until I convinced him to try his secondary. He had this honor thing about him where he didn't want to use anyone but Talim in that tournament. And as for Kura's bracket at Evo, I don't remember exactly everyone but I will tell you that he defeated Linkrkc, Malek, and myself, along with some other excellent players, using only Talim in that tournament.

It's funny, I even talk with Omega online and even he believes it's possible for someone to win with Mina consistently if they are good enough.

But anyways I didn't care what he would be before, but I really hope that Dampierre will be low tier in SC5 now. :)

 

OOF, I agree with you on the mentality arguments, but that doesn't excuse design flaws. Just because you can overcome the problem, doesn't mean that you can't improve on the design. A more balanced game would also extend the game's competitive life, which would result in a higher quality of play down the road.

BTW- there have been games other then VF where all the chars had the tools to compete- KOF98UM is one of those games, even Kasumi had the tools in that.

Compressing the tiers would improve the game, as would removing poorly-designed JFs and overcomplicated nonsensible commands. Really, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with SC, it's always been bugs and balance that have hurt the game competitively, which is maddening because it feels like wasted potential. Maybe this is just me, but the more I see potential in something, the more frustrated I get when I see that potential unfulfilled, and SC to me has had a lot of unfulfilled potential.

To me at least, the only thing that has kept SoulCal from being a true top tier, perennially respected game, has been the balance issues and bugs of the game. Given the casual popularity of SoulCal, there is no reason why a well-designed SC game wouldn't end up the 2nd most popular tourney fighter in the US. (it won't surpass SF, but it could surpass everything else) That is what I want out of SC5, a great fighter, with great netcode, that people play and enjoy, so I can turn on my PS3 at 5-6am , and find plenty of people playing, and unlike SSf4, actually have fun playing the game.

 

That is what I want out of SC5, a great fighter, with great netcode, that people play and enjoy, so I can turn on my PS3 at 5-6am , and find plenty of people playing, and unlike SSf4, actually have fun playing the game.

Not possible. SC5 will have trolls from day one. Every time I go online now (I never play SC4 anymore, so it's rare), that's the vast majority of the online community. Online simply isn't fun unless it's a private invite.

 

I also hate the bad rap that SC4 gets for being buggy. What game doesn't has bugs or glitches? And if there was a console update, then this wouldn't even be an issue.

But people find bugs all the time in other fighting games and no one cares. Find one bug in Soul Calibur, and people lose their shit and say that it's SC3 all over again. Do you hear about the bugs in Tekken 6? Nope. Glitches in SSF4? No one cares. As long as the next game gets the support that it needs, this won't be an issue.

I think the netcode is fine in SC4, but what people really need to do is play the game offline. If people do that, then you will see this game be huge in tournament. Casual players will just stick with online and not do much else. But there are alot of people who are interested in playing Soul Calibur, so who knows what can happen. People all over the net have been talking Calibur since this news came out. I even found the news in the Washington Post. I can't recall the last time any fighting game news making its way there, so if the next game is balanced and people enjoy it, it's going to be big. And if there's an arcade release, it will get rid of much of that negative stigma surrounding this game as well as get the people in Asia back into the game which I would really like to see happen.