Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

When it comes to CG art styles, I think the style I would be the most okay seeing reproduced ingame would be the CG stuff they made for SC3.

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But I dunno if there are even any good chances of an SC7 happening at all.
 
I'm still sad that not everyone got CG art for SoulCalibur III. They really did have the best designs in the series, both 1ps and 2ps. And even the CG art we did get isn't full body, could be even better... but it is what it is.

But I dunno if there are even any good chances of an SC7 happening at all.
Not sure how you can really say this, though, with how well SoulCalibur VI has been / is doing.
 
The only thing confirmed about the state of SC6's success is that the sales at release date were under SC2 and SC4 but considering the continued support with season 2 I can see SC6 either being just under SC2 in terms of profit or has as of now surpassed SC2. I personally don't think it has because I imagine Okubo would have announced it by now on Twitter that SC6 is the most successful entry in the franchise but if I'm wrong and it has become the most successful entry it's possible that he's keeping quiet until the end of the development to possibly score more investment budget for the next game.
 
Not sure how you can really say this, though, with how well SoulCalibur VI has been / is doing.
Hopefully I'm just being overly pessimistic, but considering SC6 only got barely made and how Namco has treated the SC team over the years, I'm just not sure if Namco is willing to fund a big SC sequel.

What I personally think is more likely to happen is that we get a port of SC6 for next-gen consoles.
 
If they had just called it a day with season one, I'd be inclined to agree, but with season two happening, I take that as being a great sign for our future.

But Okubo may be waiting until the end of season two to talk about sales figures. With how fighting games in general have fallen out of favor compared to the days of SoulCalibur II, though, I don't think that's the fairest metric to compare it to. If it's outperformed SoulCalibur IV, though, which seems far more reasonable, I'd consider that a success.
 
With how fighting games in general have fallen out of favor compared to the days of SoulCalibur II

They fell out of favour earlier than that, the beginning of the late 90's is when the golden age of fighting games started to dwindle. Today's scene is the best it's been since then and is still growing after an initial explosion of interest again no doubt due to the way we communicate and stream fighting game content now. After SC2's lucky success it's sequels have had some crippling stumbling blocks that have prevented them from having the same success but SC6 on the other hand is in a real good place most likely due to it not hitting these stumbling blocks. It's not perfect but as of now it's on the right track.
 
Hopefully I'm just being overly pessimistic, but considering SC6 only got barely made and how Namco has treated the SC team over the years, I'm just not sure if Namco is willing to fund a big SC sequel.

If they had just called it a day with season one, I'd be inclined to agree, but with season two happening, I take that as being a great sign for our future.
I'd say that neither the super rosey, nor the super skeptical view quite captures the reality of the situation that the franchise rests in at present time. On the one hand, FluffyQuack is quite correct: there is cause to be guarded here based on the internal dynamics of Namco and how they have treated the title over the last decade and a half. If nothing else, there's no real reason to believe the company will shift its practice of making Project Soul an ad-hoc team that is constituted whenever they decide to venture out on another SoulCal title, as opposed to a standing internal studio or team--and so long as that remains the case, the core game will always have a constrained development window limited by the amount of time in which they can divert staff and resources to develop the core game.

On the other hand, the situation today, in terms of sales models, is vastly different from what it was eight years ago when Soulcalibur V was released. Indeed, the situation for fighting games in general is quite different from where we were just two years ago, with regard to one critical component: the consumer. Up until recently (and for what I view as a somewhat self-entitled and definitely self-defeating mindset) the average fighting game consumer has been resistant to the notion of supporting a game that is delivered over a longer haul, with extra purchases of multiple season passes required for those who want the full experience. For reasons I will avoid going in to here (for the sake of keeping this post of a [edit: somewhat] manageable size, and because I've repeatedly detailed them at length in other posts here over the last year) consumers have been resistant to the practice of continuing support in the industry at large and in fighting games in particular. Suffice it to say, this resistance was originally rooted in reasonable doubts/misgivings arising out of some dodgy industry practices in past years, but over time those qualms evolved into a kind of dogma among gamers (and gamers in certain genres in particular) that began to significantly hold back development of content..

But the winds have begun to shift in that regard, and it is a critical development that comes none too soon. There's some basic math that people need to understand here to have a realistic understanding of why the games of certain genres (fighters being particularly emblematic) have been scaled down over the last decade and a half and why we can have hope that this will be changing--but also why it depends on consumers being willing to pay a little more on average. Over the last forty years, the production costs for a big budget game have increased by a factor of about thirty, and yet the amount that the publisher can charge for a copy of that same average game has remained frozen at the same price point for virtually that entire time: $60). In fact, very few games have the brand name strength to even charge that rate for long, since competition, sales pressure, and distribution practices require them to cut that rate earlier and earlier into the life of the game.

Now that's fine if you are Rockstar and your core games can sell at that price for years and you have massive sales volume to make up those costs. But if you're producing content in a genre that has long been in decline and you can neither sustain that pricepoint nor get significant volume to make up your profits, that is just not a sustainable business model, and you have one of two choices: bow to the realities of a limited budget demanded of your cost-income analysis and make a more anemic experience, or charge more for the game to try to maintain standards or even grow the experience delivered in subsequent games. For many years an up until just recently, developers have been limited in how far forward they could press on the latter, and so mostly had to fall back on the former. This was particularly evident in Soulcalibur V and the core (pre-DLC) product of Soulcalibur VI.

But things are finally jostling loose, and consumers are finally coming around to the realities of this situation--not consciously, for the most part of course, but giving ground on being willing to support a continuing support model all the same. So the answer to the question being bounced back and forth here about whether the next game will be undercooked or released as a massive monolith is "Neither." Dante's hope that SCVII will be released with all the current roster and more is a pipe dream in extremis: I'm sorry my respected frend, but it is quite simply a mathematical/financial impossibility with the industry (and this genre in particular, and this franchise even more particularly) being where they are at present time. What will happen--what must happen if we want the experience to be as large or larger than it was in past years--is that the games will continue to become increasingly serialized in how the complete experience is delivered to the gamer, with different consumers opting to buy in at different levels of support. In other words, more and more season passes will become the standard reality for the series--and most fighters generally. There's just really no other way for the genre to go, which is why you see virtually all of the major publishers leaping in this direction at once: they've wanted to do it for some time, and their market research is telling them now is the moment to strike while the iron is hot.

In fact, I don't even think we have huge indicators that SCVI has sold like gangbusters: rather, the relative silence of Namco on the subject and what little metrics we can get from the storefront seem to suggest strong sales on the core product tapered off relatively early in the last year. I think the support that Namco is giving to Soulcalibur (and indeed, all of its fighters) in terms of season passes has more to do with their wanting to reinforce the habit of their consumers viewing their products as serialized affairs, now that they are finally showing some openess to that notion. And their competitors are all doing the same thing out of unspoken agreement regarding the same profit motive. So fighters (hopefully Soulcalibur amongst them) will increasingly become larger affairs again, but only for those willing to meet the combined pricepoint and wait a little longer for the whole enchilada.

What I personally think is more likely to happen is that we get a port of SC6 for next-gen consoles.
I used to be pretty skeptical about this--it's something that has never been done with the franchise before (a re-release of a title in back-to-back console generations) and for good reasons. But I think there's an outside chance it might actually make sense to port the game in two years, after the two or three season passes have finished, in a "complete" edition for the next gen. The problem is, the way content licensing works in practice these days, usually you can download and play the same game you bought on the previous generation's console on the next one, provided they are successor platforms: reversing that trend is not feasible for the platform or the publisher: consumers would rebel at that. This means if you make a complete edition (which is essentially a bundle of the previous core game and its various DLCs) you are really trying to market it to entirely new players for the most part.

Whether there could ever be enough demand for a four year old game among newcomers is a reason for some skepticism, particularly as ports to new hardware don't come cheap when you're talking about a product that is not emulated but rather built much more substantially from the ground up again, for the new hardware. Then there's another bottleneck: one of the reasons that the continuign support model makes particular sense for Soulcalibur that I did not discuss above is that it works well with their development cycle: you do an intense 18-30 month production phase on the base game, and then you leave a skeleton staff of the lead developers and some of their more talented staff to drop the season passes and promote the game over the next couple of years. But when your team is not a permaneant studio within the larger company, sooner or later that staff has to be cycled back into fresh and more potentially lucrative products, even if you genuinely believe there's some blood to be squized from the stone yet. In these terms, I am skeptical that there will be much internal support in a couple of yearsfor going back to the SCVI well--not when most of Namco's 3D fighter staff will be heavily invested in the next Tekken by that point. But I wouldn't rule the notion out entirely either.

But Okubo may be waiting until the end of season two to talk about sales figures.
In a company of the scale and sort of Namco, no developer (not even a lead developer) will be heavily involved in making the decision about whether to release that information, let alone being the person who is most responsible for making that decision. That's a call for a CFO and their staff, in consultation with numerous departments, and depends on a lot of financial, sales, marketing, public relations, investor, and even legal/regulatory factors that go well beyond any one game and an attempt to grant it plaudits.

With how fighting games in general have fallen out of favor compared to the days of SoulCalibur II, though, I don't think that's the fairest metric to compare it to. If it's outperformed SoulCalibur IV, though, which seems far more reasonable, I'd consider that a success.
Again, I have doubts that the game has performed at this level, and even if it had, in order to realistically judge the game's financial success, you would still have to adjust those figures to account for the inflation of production costs, per the factors discussed above. However, I will say that I think Namco probably does view this game as a success, but it probably has less to do with huge sales figures and more to do with other factors: not just the way it has helped move the needle on continuing support as discussed above, but in other measures as well, such as the overwhelming amount of support that was shown to the game in that twitter poll when Namco asked which of their current fighters most impressed their consumer base. Soulcalibur VI has insane word of mouth right now, particularly among 3D fighter devotees, and when it comes to media companies and their ongoing/longterm IPs, the old adage is often turned on its head: two birds in the bush are worth more than one in the hand.
 
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I know I tend to err on the side of hope and positivity, but it really does just seem disingenuous to me if the next game in the series pares stuff back and re-sells us stuff that they literally just sold us in the game prior. There's something to be said for creation parts, sure, but characters are a whole other realm I think. It's not like they can just keep the current roster as-is and then sell all the new characters (Algol, Dampierre, Night Terror, Olcadan, whoever else is left, just giving examples), since that makes even less sense, but if we got into a pattern of, say, Hwang/Yun-seong as DLC for every game, then the fans of those characters just feel slighted. Maybe it will be the reverse, since all signs point to Tira, Amy, Cassandra, Hilde, and very probably the other two remaining DLC characters for season two having prominent story roles in the main narrative moving forward, that they couldn't possibly make them DLC, but then what do they do... just sell us "obsolete" characters as DLC, characters who aren't doing anything actively in the story? Then what would be the impetus to buy them, aside from having their styles and character designs?

Yes, I know I'm more than a little biased about the story prevalence over just the game as a fighting game, but this isn't me pushing my agenda so much as it is that I am just representing what it appears like the team is prioritizing to make their product a success. I don't know if you've read the recent three-part article from the development team, since it was in Japanese, but they've doubled down and restated that they very much truly believe that they must sell a comprehensive single-player experience in addition to their fighting game being what it is, something fresh and exciting to bring in fans both old and new. So unless they cheap out and the DLC characters of SoulCalibur VII don't get stories, because they're not relevant to the present day of the game, I just really am not sure who they would be able to withhold as DLC for the next game.
 
I know I tend to err on the side of hope and positivity, but it really does just seem disingenuous to me if the next game in the series pares stuff back and re-sells us stuff that they literally just sold us in the game prior.
Well, but that's not what I said. I said your idea of getting a game that is as expansive as this game is (after all DLC has dropped) as the base game for SCVII (before any DLC for VII is added) is simply out of touch with economic, business, and production reality. I'm not saying the experience will be 'pared down' but just the opposite: that it will be maintained or even somewhat scaled up--but that this comes with a cost and within certain practical restraints, as outlined at length above.

There's something to be said for creation parts, sure, but characters are a whole other realm I think. It's not like they can just keep the current roster as-is and then sell all the new characters (Algol, Dampierre, Night Terror, Olcadan, whoever else is left, just giving examples), since that makes even less sense, but if we got into a pattern of, say, Hwang/Yun-seong as DLC for every game, then the fans of those characters just feel slighted. Maybe it will be the reverse, since all signs point to Tira, Amy, Cassandra, Hilde, and very probably the other two remaining DLC characters for season two having prominent story roles in the main narrative moving forward, that they couldn't possibly make them DLC, but then what do they do... just sell us "obsolete" characters as DLC, characters who aren't doing anything actively in the story? Then what would be the impetus to buy them, aside from having their styles and character designs?

Yes, I know I'm more than a little biased about the story prevalence over just the game as a fighting game, but this isn't me pushing my agenda so much as it is that I am just representing what it appears like the team is prioritizing to make their product a success. I don't know if you've read the recent three-part article from the development team, since it was in Japanese, but they've doubled down and restated that they very much truly believe that they must sell a comprehensive single-player experience in addition to their fighting game being what it is, something fresh and exciting to bring in fans both old and new. So unless they cheap out and the DLC characters of SoulCalibur VII don't get stories, because they're not relevant to the present day of the game, I just really am not sure who they would be able to withhold as DLC for the next game.
Well, if I had to guess, I would suspect that each subsequent game in the ongoing support model era will be (for this franchise anyway) a substantial overlap with the previous game's cast (with some mix-up as to who gets into the base game and who gets released as subsequent DLC) but with a handful dropping out here and there, characters from SCIV, SC:BD, and SCV being re-introduced and a dusting of entirely new characters and variant guests. Basically, what they have always done for more than twenty years. Only now the rosters will be slightly larger at the ultimate finish line, but will require multiple buy-ins and some patience if you want everything. It's not really that complicated or much in question, from where I am standing--not in the rough outline, anyway: the particulars regarding who is likely to get in to which entry and in what order, we will be arguing about for years. But the relative prevalence of storytelling in the overall product, whether high or low, doesn't really change that analysis much, if at all.

Let me put it to you this way: Can I see SCVII having a slightly larger overall cast that incorporates upwards of 90% of SCVI's final roster? Sure. Do I think you are getting your 36-38 characters, including everyone from SCVI, in the base game for SCVII? Not a chance. But if we're lucky we will hit a similar or slightly higher number of characters by the end of 3-4 season passes. I think there's a possibility that it will be quite a few years before the change in model evolves to the point where we see many fighters going beyond three seasons, but its not outside the realm of possibility.
 
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The spirit of my response is essentially, well, if they don't cut characters, what else would they cut? Creation and full story modes seem like guarantees moving forward, considering that they understand these things are key selling points.

Only now the rosters will be slightly larger in total, but will require multiple buy-ins if you want everything. It's not really that complicated or much in question, from where I am standing--not in the rough outline, anyway: the particulars we will be arguing about for years. And relative prevalence of storytelling in the overall product, whether high or low, doesn't really change that analysis much, if at all.
Well, you know I have to disagree with this.

Practical locks, for the sake of the story, for SoulCalibur VII (and I've italicized characters who aren't in SoulCalibur VI yet for these lists)::

Siegfried, Nightmare, Raphael, Amy, Kilik, Xianghua, Maxi, Sophitia, Cassandra, Tira, Zasalamel, Azwel, Grøh, Hilde, Algol

After that, you literally couldn't have the game without these characters if you wanted to, due to their uniqueness and iconic nature:

Setsuka, Mitsurugi, Taki, Cervantes, Voldo, Astaroth, Ivy, Yoshimitsu

So that only leaves these for the chopping block:

Inferno (may be like SoulCalibur II, in the game but not unlockable), Rock, Aeon, Hwang, Mi-na, Talim, Yun-seong

And for those... I can't see them dropping Mi-na and Talim, I really can't. This would then leave us in the opposite scenario from SoulCalibur VI, where we have our "waifu season passes", so the argument could be made that the passes wouldn't be profitable, and then if they didn't sell, well, that's not good for business. Though, like you said, it's possible that they may dip into SoulCalibur V, where we could get Viola and Z.W.E.I. for DLC, they'd sell well, in all likelihood, but the kids would still be ruled out.

You might could argue that Setsuka might get the Tira treatment for SoulCalibur VII, maybe, but that would be a bit of a slap to the face, after she didn't make base roster for the previous game and then she's day one DLC for the next game... I can't really see that going well. Tira was feasibly given such treatment in SoulCalibur VI because her story was that of an origin, but now that she would take an active role in stalking Sophitia's children, her being left out I don't see as reasonable.

Edit: I left out Algol, whoops.
 
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The spirit of my response is essentially, well, if they don't cut characters, what else would they cut? Creation and full story modes seem like guarantees moving forward, considering that they understand these things are key selling points.


Well, you know I have to disagree with this.

Practical locks, for the sake of the story, for SoulCalibur VII (and I've italicized characters who aren't in SoulCalibur VI yet for these lists)::

Siegfried, Nightmare, Raphael, Amy, Kilik, Xianghua, Maxi, Sophitia, Cassandra, Tira, Zasalamel, Azwel, Grøh, Hilde

After that, you literally couldn't have the game without these characters if you wanted to, due to their uniqueness and iconic nature:

Setsuka, Mitsurugi, Taki, Cervantes, Voldo, Astaroth, Ivy, Yoshimitsu

So that only leaves these for the chopping block:

Inferno (may be like SoulCalibur II, in the game but not unlockable), Rock, Aeon, Hwang, Mi-na, Talim, Yun-seong

And for those... I can't see them dropping Mi-na and Talim, I really can't. This would then leave us in the opposite scenario from SoulCalibur VI, where we have our "waifu season passes", so the argument could be made that the passes wouldn't be profitable, and then if they didn't sell, well, that's not good for business. Though, like you said, it's possible that they may dip into SoulCalibur V, where we could get Viola and Z.W.E.I. for DLC, they'd sell well, in all likelihood, but the kids would still be ruled out.

You might could argue that Setsuka might get the Tira treatment for SoulCalibur VII, maybe, but that would be a bit of a slap to the face, after she didn't make base roster for the previous game and then she's day one DLC for the next game... I can't really see that going well. Tira was feasibly given such treatment in SoulCalibur VI because her story was that of an origin, but now that she would take an active role in stalking Sophitia's children, her being left out I don't see as reasonable.

It doesn't matter which cluster of characters this or that player thinks are essential and "shouldn't" be introduced as DLC. There are practical, real world constraints here that prevent them from producing the game, as a product, in the fashion you envision, and those considerations are always going to govern over "in world" considerations, and what we might hope to see. With respect, you haven't really addressed those constraints, you just keep saying "Well, but they have to include X, Y, and Z!" But they can only include what they can afford to include, as a viable production strategy with a realistic cost-income analysis (and for that matter, realistic production timeline). Unless you're holding out on us and have a few million laying around to give to Namco to subsidize production! ;)
 
The thing is, though, they’re not going to have to reinvent the wheel here. They had to create all these new systems and mechanics for SoulCalibur VI, and as such, modify the movesets accordingly, and everything else inbetween. By comparison, SoulCalibur VII would be more like SoulCalibur II was to SoulCalibur compared with SoulCalibur VI, the same base game, but with more stuff added. I know it’s not literally a copy and paste job, it’s not that cheap or simple, but there really wouldn’t be nearly as much to do with design change and thus work to do between SoulCalibur VI and SoulCalibur VII. That’s why I believe you’re overestimating the costs involved that they literally couldn’t do it if they wanted to.
 
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The thing is, though, they’re not going to have to reinvent the wheel here. They had to create all these new systems and mechanics for SoulCalibur VI, and as such, modify the movesets accordingly, and everything else inbetween. By comparison, SoulCalibur VII would be more like SoulCalibur II was to SoulCalibur compared with SoulCalibur VI, the same base game, but with more stuff added. I know it’s not literally a copy and paste job, it’s not that cheap or simple, but there really wouldn’t be nearly as much to do with design change and thus work to do between SoulCalibur VI and SoulCalibur VII. That’s why I believe you’re overestimating the costs involved that they literally couldn’t do it if they wanted to.
The next entry is going to be on a new generation of hardware, and thus as new entries go, SCVII will, if anything, require significantly more development assets, not less. Having some systems in place vis-a-vis the mechanics is a drop of water in the bucket compared to the overall costs of a venture of that sort. Nor does any of that reverse the overall trend that the production of such media always involves increased cost, generation on generation. Inflation: it's a bitch, but it's economic reality. Particularly when you can't pass that extra cost on to the customer. To say nothing of the fact that they would, of course, like to be making more profit, if possible.

I'm sorry, but in these practical regards, your expectations might as well be based on rainbows and moonbeams, for all they match with the reality of the financial, timeline, and resource constraints: costs will go up, the amount they can charge for the base game will remain fixed (or diminished by the current sales culture, if anything), and the resulting math cannot be ignored. They must either drastically reduce content or else deliver it through a new model at an increased overall pricepoint relative to the amount that is delivered, and scaling to individual consumer investment. And between those two options, there is absolutely no question which they are utilizing in their approach to the current game, nor which would be most attractive to them moving forward.
 
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Even when it comes to ingame model it's still the best imo, even if graphics weren't as high as today but her face model in SC2 was the peak of all imo.

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Speaking about CG models Sophitia SC3 is easily one of my favorite, i think Sophi was the biggest improvement from SC2 to 3, she also had the best costumes in this game too

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