Tier Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Maxou said:
Best thing to do is to GI. Not a waster of meter because if she does GI back she has less metter. Less meter for Viola = less damage. This is a good thing.
Click to expand...
Certain auto-GIs can be good here, too, i.e. Alpha A+B.
 
Can't help but feel as if Algol is being severely overlooked. How people consider him to be anywhere near mid tier confuses me. I personally feel as if he belongs no lower than top 3. Besides his good frames, damage output w/meter, spacing, frame traps and general safety, he is a walking bag of tricks that has a plethora of tools to keep pressure on and guard break. I really can not stress enough how strong overall this character is. I believe most people have not played against a well versed Algol who knows exactly what they're doing and has the knowledge to play Algol close to his full potential.
 
I wouldn't say people are exactly sleeping on him, but he just isn't being repped widely enough for us to know.
After all, in theory Alpha is #1 in this game. My own early thoughts on Algol though do note his safety issues and meter dependancy for good damage, so GI is pretty viable against him I feel. Time will tell though.
 
Maxou said:
Omega has other options you didn't cover :
- her best offensive move : 4B (60+ dmg NH, 90+ if CE, +0 block)
- 66A (very good antistep tool, -12 but can be safe against some characters because of pushback > Alpha can't punish it with AA)
- WS B is also very good.
- NS A very good starter move (unsafe, but TC and antistep tool)
- 22_88B (TC, safe, combo with DNS B NH)
+ very good pokes, average to good throws (enough to feel pressured) and a very good guard break damage overall.
Her damage isn't "that" high without CE. But a very very good punishing character with some good offensive tools.

I am surprised you didn't talk at all of Pyrrha's best move : 22K.
Pyrrha's damage isn't that high either (apart from 22K 236B:4 nothing is over 80dmg without CE). She has better pokes, and better damage opportunities that Omega but she has a serious weakness : zoning. She will suffer against good zoning characters like Nightmare, Mitsurugi, or even Cervantes.

This weakness isn't Omega's. I believe Omega will end up over Pyrrah in the long run if you look at MUs.
Click to expand...

Good points, I forgot about those. Although for me, 4B, 22B, and WS B whiff often or just stepped easily enough. And for Pyrrha's 22K, I've never been able to hit that.

Also Pyrrha can easily get 80 off CH and 66B BE. As far as match ups are concerned, I think Omega has a much easier time with Cervantes. In my experience, I have yet to punish NS B and DNS B with aB; pushback and blockstun make them really safe. Compared to Pyrrha, Omega has an easier time.
 
Maxou said:
- Raph well... just make him pre-patch version, everyone will be happy.
Click to expand...

NO :<

22B spam is boring...
Give me back seA +0 like prepatch
seB tracking is broken i can live without it.

but without tracking prepK raph isn t going anywhere.

Raph needs 2 things to be a character:

Sea +0 (transition is at least 26 frames before it connects so its fair) and i mean +0 s +0 not -2 or anything else.
prepK 180° tracking (being heavily unsafe and even worse with BE it would only punish steppers OR people attacking after being hit by prep, on block it can still be interrupted.)

then he could be mid-low....from there anything s welcome...but those are really needed.

Fixing 4B, 3B and such would be nice too...whiffing natural combo on hit seems awkward.

I think instead he will get 11K and CE nerfed XD trading for his taunt getting tech crouch properties.
 
Maxou said:
Best thing to do is to GI. Not a waster of meter because if she does GI back she has less metter. Less meter for Viola = less damage. This is a good thing.
JG or step isn't that good because you can cancel the second hit into 6B+K + pressing.

After the patch, this move can delayed with a huuuuuge window.
This allow for better confirms, or delay gimmics.
Combos like 6B+K 2A 44A BE + combo are possible only because of this delay (139dmg without clean hit for 1 BE).
Click to expand...
Yes yes yes GI Viola I 100% agree, make that bitch waste her meter, you don't want to fight her with meter. She already used 2 stocks on the BE. GI vs Viola is the way to go, absolutely. You can rob her of her CE traps in later rounds too.
 
Maxou said:
My list (updated) :
S: Algol*, Alpha Pat, Cervantes, Mitsurugi
A: Viola*, Patroklos, Omega
C: Nightmare, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Voldo, Ivy, Natsu, Pyrrha
D: Ezio, Leixa*, Maxi, Aeon, Xiba, Hilde, Tira
E: Siegfried*, ZWEI*, Dampierre
F: Raph*

* = need to be patched asap.
- Algol need a real nerf : way too much damage overall, his 66B is just way too safe (-10/-11/-12 should be good because of pushback), Qi K/B at wake up should have removed tracking (especially Qi K) in order to make the A useful, FC 8B BE should be nerfed in air combos.
- Viola need a real nerf too : waaaaay too much damage, her 44A BE need to be nerfed, her 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE needs to be removed, her BT throw need to be nerfed in order not to have 44A BE connecting.
- Leixa needs to be upped : I put her in mid (D being mid) but I think is she should be in E... She deals no damage at all, her only redeeming feature is her correct frame trap game and auto-evade game. She needs either to have more damage or more guard breaking situations.
- Siegfried needs to be upped too : please give him back 55/50 damage throws, and he needs more NH damage without BE.
- Raph well... just make him pre-patch version, everyone will be happy.

I think this game is kinda balanced too, but some tweaks are needed to make this game even better.

PS : If you want to patch Alpha Patroklos, I would reduce damage overall (reduce 2A BE and JF twister damage would reduce all his damage), make FC 3B:B to 1.03's 1B:B timing (1JF window), make FC 3B:B less damaging too but buff 6AA (-14 instead of -16 block), buff 44A (more range, this move is completely useless atm).
PPS : Hilde may be C tier and Ezio may be E tier. Dampierre tier is completely random.

EDIT : Thank you ChaosK
Click to expand...
Very good post Maxou, I agree on most parts. However I think Mitsu need a serious nerf and I dont think ZWEI is weak. I think Hilde is one of the worst characters in the game though and definitely Viola is S tier. I dont think bringing Raph pre-patch would make him much better, though.

My tier List so far is this:
High: Mitsu, Viola, aPat, Omega, Cervantes, Algol
Mid: Everyone else
Low: Raph, Hilde, Dampierre
 
Belial said:
Very good post Maxou, I agree on most parts. However I think Mitsu need a serious nerf and I dont think ZWEI is weak. I think Hilde is one of the worst characters in the game though and definitely Viola is S tier. I dont think bringing Raph pre-patch would make him much better, though.
Click to expand...

:O I'd be very interested to hear why you think that...
 
I personaly JG a lot of Hilde's better moves on reaction (22B, 66A+B, Lv3 Charge moves, 3A and A+B fully charged) so I'm assuming if I can do this 75% of the time online im sure others could do it with even more frequency offline. Then if I guess right on what your charging, I get a free grab. Nothing Hilde does is frightening except her CE.

I am interested in why he also agrees that she isn't that good.
 
Hilde sucks b/c everything she has is heavily punishable, and her tools are not spectacular to begin with. I cant understand how can anyone think she's any good, really.
 
Belial said:
Hilde sucks b/c everything she has is heavily punishable, and her tools are not spectacular to begin with. I cant understand how can anyone think she's any good, really.
Click to expand...

Hilde is not weak.
Very very hard character to play though (consistent use of C2 A need to be mastered).

I had a talk with Thiry about ZWEI, since he plays him, and he told me ZWEI was probably mid or mid-. Why do you think he's not weak?

PS : and yes I do agree that Mitsu needs a serious nerf. Most of S tier needs nerfs IMO.
 
How can she not be weak if every of her staple move is launcher punishable? She has enphasis on zoning but her zoning tools are all crazy unsafe or give mixup on guard. How do you play her, run away though the arena hoping to score a C2A? She is not hard to play, she is just WEAK, thats where "hardness" originates from. Raphael can deal damage too, but you put him in F. Where they both belong obv.

ZWEI on the other hand takes over half bar on a good guess. His RR usually outweights opponents 5+ times. Nvm that once rushdown is started he can just keep forcing mixups on you infinitely. I cant really see how anyone so far thinks ZWEI is weak. Hell, he might be top.
 
Hey belial im sure u remember me from all those negative comments about zwei...I actually am using him alot more now just trying to see where this guys stands out :/ atm he is a mystery and has a bit of a learning curve to him. If u have a tier lists or u already made a new one well I would like to see it.
 
Hilde's A+B is an excellent zoning tool - sure, it's -16 on block, but considering the move's immense range, it's not like you can really punish it. 6A+B and 66K are useful for getting in as well, the former having good range and frame advantage on block, whilst the latter gives you awesome frame advantage on hit.

JG does limit the effectiveness of certain tools, granted. C3A stands out in that regard, but it's still an excellent whiff punisher if you don't have enough meter for CE.

I'm not saying that Hilde is awesome, because she has some obvious flaws (lack of good lows, no move for punishing -12 etc.), but I just find it difficult to imagine her being in the bottom 5 (which I assumed you were implying with 'one of the worst characters in the game').
 
nvm belial I saw your tier lists had to scroll up....*hits head*
 
Hilde is a very interesting character. But she's hard not from being weak, but from using the tools she has at the correct time. Very underated character IMO.
Same can be said for ZWEI :)
 
Maxou said:
My list (updated) :
S: Algol*,
* = need to be patched asap.
- Algol need a real nerf : way too much damage overall, his 66B is just way too safe (-10/-11/-12 should be good because of pushback), Qi K/B at wake up should have removed tracking (especially Qi K) in order to make the A useful, FC 8B BE should be nerfed in air combos.
Click to expand...
My thoughts on this:
-Remove all tracking from QI B. That move is good enough as it is, it shouldn't track like it does, as it makes QI A completely useless anyways. QI K seems to have much less tracking, especially to the left side. I'm not sure if they could change it without causing whiffing issues.
-Algol's 66B is fine as it is. At -4, standard AA/BBs will beat all his options besides crouch/sidestep or the hugely unsafe 623B. Compared to Pyrrha Ω's or Patroklos's 66Bs, it's nothing (both are -2 on block, Ω's hits grounded and tracks to one side, both give 70-80 meterless on NH). Also, it's only about 40 damage on hit with 3B combo, and this combo gives a poor oki situation anyways due to the knockback of grounded 3B. It's also completely linear with no tracking to either side.
-FC 8B BE was already nerfed in air combos in 1.03. Algol's biggest damage options already require landing 44B, which is i27 and linear. Coupled with the fact that he has some of the worst meter building ability out of the entire cast, his damage output is about on par with other characters. Of course there's the free meter when the opponent reaches game point, but I think that's an awful mechanic and should've been removed to begin with.

Algol also has plenty of other weaknesses that prevent him from being "S" tier (i.e. greatly above the rest of the cast in a way that lower tier characters have no chance of competing). For one, his stepkill is a joke. All his options are either too slow, unsafe, or short ranged. In addition to that his own movement is probably the worst in the game. He can't control space nearly as well as he could in IV.
 
Slade said:
Algol also has plenty of other weaknesses that prevent him from being "S" tier (i.e. greatly above the rest of the cast in a way that lower tier characters have no chance of competing). For one, his stepkill is a joke. All his options are either too slow, unsafe, or short ranged.
Click to expand...

I would like to introduce you to Raphael lol...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back