Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

Alright, this is a new video, I know u r gonna be curious about some stuff, so feel free to ask.

 
All of those are BD only right?

Cus i remember talking to Hajime at EVO and he says that Flea 6A+K , A+K, FLEA K is a tech trap alrdy

Also, what about A+B+K setups? Some of those combos were good, but impractical. I would like to see situations where they are forced to Block A+B+K, or 44bA
 
funkpanda said:
All of those are BD only right?

Cus i remember talking to Hajime at EVO and he says that Flea 6A+K , A+K, FLEA K is a tech trap alrdy

Also, what about A+B+K setups? Some of those combos were good, but impractical. I would like to see situations where they are forced to Block A+B+K, or 44bA
Click to expand...

Yeah, about FLE 6A+K, A+K, FLE k works on SC4, I showed that to Hajime during a lag match, and comes irrelevant in BD cause u can combo now with FLE A+B, FLE B, but wanted to show that, also with the right timing u can tech trap 3 or 4 times the A+K.

And about A+B+K, it´s a good move, but it´s unsafe, it must be used at max range on whiffs... The thing with that move is that it doesn´t hit grounded, so it´s hard to force block, but not impossible, and I haven´t found any wall combo with that.
For 44bA, it´s almost the same, it doesn´t hit grounded, the range is too short, but I recommed to use that after 66A+BG or DGF cancel.

JF 4A is so good now... I mean, I´ve been using that in real matches in SC4 with excellent results for RO, there are a few matches recorded in Tiamat´s channel, but now, is my bread and butter for juggles.

But you are missing the star of the video, iMCF, 3B+K:B, 8A+BG.... It´s a combo and the best part of it, is that it works in SC4... Is character specific in both, BD and SC4, but in BD is such a great combo, cause you have a lot of options. For example, as you saw in the video, it gives at least 2 44bB´s, 4 is the best I have gotten. If you don´t have a chance for a RO, u can go for 66A+B, if they go for ukemi, 66A+B will hit grounded and 30 dmg for that... Once they learned to stay on the ground, there´s the trick, they can´t roll for a short time, no matter what, so 1lv1 is guaranteed and the dmg scale is reseted, in BD 9B+KK is guaranteed, with the second stomp, being a tech trap, cause actually, 9B+KK combos are gone, but only in short range.
Anyway, try to play with 3B+K:B and see how it works for u, I will post later the characters that works the best, if u can test that in SC4, that would be great, in case there are differences with BD.

I forgot to record a tech trap that I found a while, DGF K, MED A... It doesn´t work on small chars
 
he's good but not quite as safe as it may seem, he goes into DGF way too often and was doing things like going into SDGF and deathcopter vs. astaroth, which is just ASKING to be 28B+G'd. he also didn't work any iron fist possession stuff into his game at all. other than that, he's very good, and would crush me v_v
 
Belial: Now I see why you both think 4B is great. It's because he uses it to stop your anti-iMCF tactics. It's a great answer since 4K will whiff against Mitsu's 6B+K. Still, I think it's effectiveness is limited. It's clearly a good move against you though. No one else has the balls to step in with an STC to go under an anticipated iMCF besides you.

OYM: Why so much stance dancing? Why not punish RLC A with 6K2K? FC 3K, DNK (6A+BBBB) is a combo against Mitsu. Have you considered integrating Tekken moves into your game? There were several situations where you could have escaped Belial's Oki game with T2 (drunken stance) and T3 (Jin fists). There were also a couple ST3 (Kazuya UB) opportunities missed.

RDDK: Stop playing on-line! Hehe. =) Anyways...

He's pretty safe, but he seems to get away with some stuff he shouldn't. He has a bad habit of doing 33B, [B+K]. Being stuck BT against that [B+K] puts you at a severe disadvantage and gives your opponent a free mix-up (back throw _ mid). He also seems to like WS A, which is ridiculously dangerous against opponents who have strong BT B+K options (Asta, Mitsu, etc.).

His Yoshi looks like mine when I'm playing against chars. who can punish, except I don't see him dishing out damaging wall combos or using Tekken moves. Of course, one can't completely judge based on vids, but he seems almost over-conservative at times. Seems like it does him well, though.

EDIT: I think my issue with DTN's Yoshi is that he's playing all these FT5 matches and he's not testing the waters and finding out what he can and can't get away with. 5 matches gives a Yoshi player a lot of time to find out just how much the opponent knows. As far as testing tactics, it feels like he's only looking for ways to connect DGF mix-ups and playing 50/50 games with iFC 3K and 33B B+K. There's little or no iMCF baiting, no testing if the opponent can or cannot stop T4 (Kunimitsu UB), and zero tech traps (many of which are stupidly strong). Again, though, being conservative is working well for him. I just don't see why he's not going for more occasionally.
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A couple vids, since we're all posting them now. ^_^ More to come from Lags from some of my money matches last week.

Part 1
Part 2

First time I've ever played against a serious Vader. Same goes for OOF against my Yoshi.

Part 1
Part 2

I know this matchup inside and out and it became clear as I went that Offbeat didn't know all my Yoshi tricks.

Part 1
Part 2

GGs to Bibulus. My over-agressiveness partly to blame for my loss. Unfortunately, it seems like Yoshi lacks one good answer to Voldo's BS. Part of my requirement to that answer is that it cannot be BS A+B aGI-able. I've been searching forever and my only good answers are 3B, 9B+KK (at the right distance), 9A+B2 (at the right distance), and FC 3K occasionally.

I know Belial will say FC 3K, but since FC 3K doesn't tech crouch, BS A+B and other highs still hit Yoshi. Dumb, right?
 
Hajime: Against BS, like every other troublesome stuff in the game! you mustnt look for an opening, but rather create one.
ex if you duck at max range, voldo BS A+B will wiff, and you can punish, and his other options are out of range yet. BUT why would he wiff BS A+B? That is b/c you will be coming at him and forcing a mix up. 33B TC and has great range. 214A at a closer range is troublesome. Eventually, even basic spacing works well, but you have to keep in mind -
there are two ways to approach this, 1) one is to counter the maximum number of options with minimum effort. 2) The other is to deal maximum damage out of the correct guess.
In your game with OOF i think your main problem becomes apparent. you really lack adapatation. more than anything, you miss it in your own patterns, b/c you are too dedicated to certain stuff. You definitely overuse Tekken moves! sometimes they are not needed b/c you could have read your opponent and deal damage, but you still go for them. I mean, when I see you play I'm like WHOA this guy has a great yoshi. but then you lose horribly w/o any real reason except your inability to get over your own gameplan.

And you forgot game! ^_^

Thx for you critisism.. I think some stuff was missed on both sides in this game, but it is still good games in my opinion I know we have a lot of room for improvement yet.

On DTN vs Saitoh.
DTN has very inconvinient playstyle, very strange, maybe that is the reason Saitoh has such a hard time against him. On the other hand DTN vs Astaroth is lacking, especially with yoshimitsu.
- Yoshi speed (and not just iMCF) can create a huge problem to astaroth in game. Especially to Saitoh who tend to throw away frame advantage for dubious mindgame.
- Throw punishing with WS A that leaves asta in BT and +0? That is a no-no. FC 3K is the way to go OR 214A anticipating a throw works decently too.
- Astaroth can definitely hurt Yoshi DFG game, so that kind of abuse is prohibited. Tech Jumping agains astaroth is another thing to reconsider, really. (which happend quite a few time especially 2K 8K is not a pattern you want vs Asta if even for him not having 2A)
- Too much 33B, I guess its a part of his gameplan, but yet, vs Astaroth getting in is more important than forcing a reverse mixup (if any), also he has a hard time with 33B, B+K variations.
- Astaroth can't really punish unsafes like 3B. iMCF spam... asta has no way to punish. (well, maybe 3A_B+G) etc.

There are more to that games , but I couldnt really watch it all till the end. ^_^
 
I didn't include our vid because I already posted it earlier in this thread. =) These are new ones Idle posted within the past two weeks.

Belial said:
Hajime: Against BS, like every other troublesome stuff in the game! you mustnt look for an opening, but rather create one.
ex if you duck at max range, voldo BS A+B will wiff, and you can punish, and his other options are out of range yet. BUT why would he wiff BS A+B? That is b/c you will be coming at him and forcing a mix up. 33B TC and has great range. 214A at a closer range is troublesome. Eventually, even basic spacing works well, but you have to keep in mind -
there are two ways to approach this, 1) one is to counter the maximum number of options with minimum effort. 2) The other is to deal maximum damage out of the correct guess.
Click to expand...

EDIT: I didn't lose to Bibulus because of BS. I lost because I kept walking into BS 44A like an idiot. Haha.

33B is a good option that I use, but it occasionally gets aGIed by BS A+B. BS 66B forces you to stop ducking at max range BS. So, it's still a toss-up if the Voldo player is integrating BS 66B into his game. 9A+B2 gets past max range BS 100% if they commit to something. Yes, 214A CAN cause issues, but all the Voldo player has to do is wait once they notice you trying to work 214A into your game. BS 1A also tends to beat out slow 214A.

With Voldo, there is really only one way to approach it and that is to counter the maximum number of options with minimum effort WITH the correct guess. Those guesses being to step and punish, CH 3A(hit confirm)B, 3B, 33B, 214A, or 9A+B2. BS 1As STC combined with BS A+B aGI creates a lot of issues for Yoshi because there isn't a one-move-beats-all blanket solution (as much as I'd like there to be). On a side note...8K might look good on paper, but it keeps Voldo in BS and 1A STCs over it.

Unlike most characters, it's harder to build up a mind game against Voldo players. Voldo is mostly safe and it benefits them to be as offensive as possible. So, while I agree with your points, there aren't definite answers to Voldo when playing Yoshi. I say this from experience having played against Manta countless times and trying to find that blanket answer to BS. There is none. Just good options based on spacing.


In your game with OOF i think your main problem becomes apparent. you really lack adapatation. more than anything, you miss it in your own patterns, b/c you are too dedicated to certain stuff. You definitely overuse Tekken moves! sometimes they are not needed b/c you could have read your opponent and deal damage, but you still go for them. I mean, when I see you play I'm like WHOA this guy has a great yoshi. but then you lose horribly w/o any real reason except your inability to get over your own gameplan.
Click to expand...

I can adapt, just slower than I'd like to be able to. I can admit to that, because my slow adjustment is what lost me my game against Link at EVO. In my game versus OOF, I'm not sure what I'm not adapting to. Any constructive criticism is welcome.

A couple things about that though. Unfortunately, I hardly knew anything about Vader at the time of that match except what Cedric showed me, so I have no idea what he was capable of. And since I can't anticipate /read what I don't know, I decided to use Tekken Moves to create space and reset situations when I felt I was in over my head. But, without that information, I can understand why you would view the video that way. You gotta admit, you liked how I countered Vader's 1BA with Yoshi 1K. Found that out during my 1K study.


On DTN vs Saitoh.
DTN has very inconvinient playstyle, very strange, maybe that is the reason Saitoh has such a hard time against him. On the other hand DTN vs Astaroth is lacking, especially with yoshimitsu.
- Yoshi speed (and not just iMCF) can create a huge problem to astaroth in game. Especially to Saitoh who tend to throw away frame advantage for dubious mindgame.
- Throw punishing with WS A that leaves asta in BT and +0? That is a no-no. FC 3K is the way to go OR 214A anticipating a throw works decently too.
- Astaroth can definitely hurt Yoshi DFG game, so that kind of abuse is prohibited. Tech Jumping agains astaroth is another thing to reconsider, really. (which happend quite a few time especially 2K 8K is not a pattern you want vs Asta if even for him not having 2A)
- Too much 33B, I guess its a part of his gameplan, but yet, vs Astaroth getting in is more important than forcing a reverse mixup (if any), also he has a hard time with 33B, B+K variations.
- Astaroth can't really punish unsafes like 3B. iMCF spam... asta has no way to punish. (well, maybe 3A_B+G) etc.

There are more to that games , but I couldnt really watch it all till the end. ^_^
Click to expand...

I was commenting more on his games against the Sophie and Mitsu player. Against Asta, Yoshi can get away with a lot more crap. I agree with you on Yoshi speed and Asta lacking the ability to punish.

- WS A IS BAD!!! He uses it often and somehow gets away with it without the opponent forcing a mix-up on him. On a side note, if you're going to duck a throw, 6K2K is the most damaging option. There's no point in using FC 3K as punishment unless it's a last resort.

- Too much 33B [B+K] NOT 33B B+K. Note the [B+K]. It puts Yoshi into BT. If the opponent blocks the string, Yoshi is at -12 and BT. We all know Yoshi's BT game is terrible. No one in the videos makes him pay for committing to it, though. 33B B+K though is a great way in against Asta. That and max range 66A+B when Asta whiffs.
 
...did you say he abuses tekken moves? He certainly doesn't, he uses them in the right places and uses them sparringly. If anyone abuses them, I do -_-
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And I would post my videos, but they are of online gameplay only, and not offline. I don't do anything seriously online, and I just enjoy messing around trying to figure out new tactics to use. I'll post like 3 of em, but the others I am leaving where they belong. On youtube =]

And yes, I know I do a lot of stupid things. It's online, I can do what I want =p


Oh, I was messing around in the third one with a few moves as you can see. Also, the second one and all of the other most recent onces I have are of me when I just came back after playing BB, they are of my first few days back.
 
wow, so many great videos, and awesome info. great discussion.
thank you fellas, i feel like i´m improving just by watching the videos and reading the related info/discussion.
 
Your comments about DTN's Yoshimitsu were much appreciated.
I translate for you his answer that was posted on FR forum :

Please note that it wasn't written for you but to the other people in FR forum who copy-pasted your comments and also added some other stuff. So the end is a bit defensive - and directed to them. Don't take it the wrong way ;)

DTN said:
Thank you very much for analysing my game. This is going to help me a lot improving my Yoshi

My playstyle has a lot more fantasy in freeplay than in a FT5/FT10 challenge, where my movelist is much more limited. I think I should work on this to become more unpredictable.

About the WS moves, I have this habit from playing Siegfried. I will train to do 6K2K more naturally.

[.. stuff about DNK that was said in FR forum ... ]

I think I have found a solution to not abuse DGF. I noticed I abused it a lot during my matches vs Dina and Keysona.

33B B+K / [B+K] is just an execution mistake. I will have to correct this.

I can do iMCF easily now, but I'm not the one to abuse it everywhere in a match, I try to set it up properly at the right moment and not just randomly. I realize that in certain moments or against certain people I could abuse it, but it's just not my style.

My Yoshimitsu is sort of weird. I try to play him like I played Yoshi in SC1, using a lot of 33B like it was Siegfried's 3B. If I tried to play like every Yoshimitsu does it, it would be silly. I play in my own way. People can find it ugly or sometimes unefficient. But I can't change my whole style and the way I see the game either.

Regards,
Click to expand...
 
Tresto: Glad to see it translated. =) Thanks!

DTN: Your Yoshi is very safe and conservative. I'm not saying your Yoshi is ugly. You play your Yoshi like I do when I'm playing against my brother (he knows all my Yoshi options and tricks) or when I played against LinkRKC. I just think that in a FT5 or FT10 against an unfamiliar opponent you should have more options, not less. I think Yoshi has so many options that you can spend the first 3 matches figuring out what will and won't work. But that's how I play. Regardless, I can see how your playing style can be very effective and I respect that you play a safe Yoshi (since most Yoshi players can be reckless). I think the one thing that will make your Yoshi stronger is learning his wall combos. He can easily do ~90-100 damage on the wall. I noticed you missed two wall combo opportunities in your videos. =(
 
HajimeOwari
Hi, sorry for delayed reply
HajimeOwari said:
Why so much stance dancing?
Click to expand...
because basic dfg mix-up fails to be one against Belial. There is a timing for 2G, which allows your oppenent to block dfg K/ avoid dfg A, and be up for upcoming dfg B, Belial uses it quite well;
more to it, MED A\B can be avoided with step->2G, SDFG A\B\B+K\2B+K - same story, but step->G
so i have to to do something to setup, actually, the only mixup yoshi has - i try to disrupt his timings with idle stance transition animations, to make him anticipate more options than he was ready to and so on
at first 8B+K 6A+B worked like a charm, but now u see what i ended up with.
HajimeOwari said:
Why not punish RLC A with 6K2K?
Click to expand...
well, 1K or 214A will do much better job; 3B should be punished with 6K and FC1B with AA
but that's not what this is about
there was a time i always entered defensive mode when i saw rlc or mst crawling nearby and focused on antisipation rlcA\rlcB to punish it like a pro, and if there were rlc K's i thought: "what the hell, i'll take those, but u cant do them forever..", well that worked until i realised that i've been overwhelmed with options and all i did: stand guard, ready to hit 6k.
no question, rlc+mst are tasty and juicy, but i'm full of it, tnx =] u have to come up with something other than just spamming G, so your options + his options + reaction time and ect. sometimes u're just lost (well at least i'm)
you played Belial at EVO, u should get the idea that u cant antisipate and react properly to everything that goes beyond basic low\mid mixup.
or maybe i'm just getting old =]
HajimeOwari said:
FC 3K, DNK (6A+BBBB) is a combo against Mitsu.
Click to expand...
No it's not. I mean sometimes it connects, yes, but it's not guaranted
u can combo dkn for like 5 times in a row and then it start whiffs for no reason
or did i miss something?
HajimeOwari said:
Have you considered integrating Tekken moves into your game? There were several situations where you could have escaped Belial's Oki game with T2 (drunken stance) and T3 (Jin fists). There were also a couple ST3 (Kazuya UB) opportunities missed.
Click to expand...
i use them from time to time, but not on a regular basis
mostly because forget about them in heat of a battle + i dont find them that useful in my play, especially vs Belial, except maybe auto-gi to pwn rlc, yeah, i should do it moar =]

=====

I noticed you wondered why i use 4b so often, well, i wonder why you wonder =]
I think that's the main tool to keep opponent pressured and one of the best yoshi's moves:
a) mid, -4
b) leaves opponent crouched
c) delivers massive guard damage

actually iMCF alone, forces your enemy to sit tight afterwards (not to mention step\backdash) since his options are limited by his position
also i often aim for soul crush (or at least make my opponent consider this possibility) by using 4b in aggregate with 66\33A+B, DFG B, 33B B+K (keep in mind that all those options major part of yoshi's damaging tools)

well that's how i see it =)
 
On-Your-Mark said:
HajimeOwari
Hi, sorry for delayed reply

because basic dfg mix-up fails to be one against Belial. There is a timing for 2G, which allows your oppenent to block dfg K/ avoid dfg A, and be up for upcoming dfg B, Belial uses it quite well;
more to it, MED A\B can be avoided with step->2G, SDFG A\B\B+K\2B+K - same story, but step->G
so i have to to do something to setup, actually, the only mixup yoshi has - i try to disrupt his timings with idle stance transition animations, to make him anticipate more options than he was ready to and so on
at first 8B+K 6A+B worked like a charm, but now u see what i ended up with.
Click to expand...

No worries about the delayed response.

Right. You're having trouble with it, which is why I'm asking why you're still trying to stance dance. I just feel like once you get an opponent who understands how to deal with mostly everything, then stances become worthless and way too much work for little reward. I guess you're just confirming what I thought. Hehe. ^_^

well, 1K or 214A will do much better job; 3B should be punished with 6K and FC1B with AA
but that's not what this is about
there was a time i always entered defensive mode when i saw rlc or mst crawling nearby and focused on antisipation rlcA\rlcB to punish it like a pro, and if there were rlc K's i thought: "what the hell, i'll take those, but u cant do them forever..", well that worked until i realised that i've been overwhelmed with options and all i did: stand guard, ready to hit 6k.
no question, rlc+mst are tasty and juicy, but i'm full of it, tnx =] u have to come up with something other than just spamming G, so your options + his options + reaction time and ect. sometimes u're just lost (well at least i'm)
you played Belial at EVO, u should get the idea that u cant antisipate and react properly to everything that goes beyond basic low\mid mixup.
or maybe i'm just getting old =]
Click to expand...

True. I did play Belial and I understand how he forces a response with RLC K. I did notice you're proactive when he goes into RLC. Still, it seems like RLC A_B are slow enough on block that you'd have enough time to react with a proper punish. I like to punish RLC A with 6K2K. RLC B with 4K{B}. I never got another chance to play him, but would loved to have tried to start baiting him with bG_kG and find other solutions to bait his RLC A_B response.

If you look at it from another perspective, he's reacting to you and is really taking all the risk. Finding ways to scare him into a response would seem like the way to go. Even if he reads this post, he can't completely anticipate you trying to bait him. Unfortunately, there aren't any Mitsu players that resemble Belial here, so I can only do testing on it once my 360 is fixed.

No it's not. I mean sometimes it connects, yes, but it's not guaranted
u can combo dkn for like 5 times in a row and then it start whiffs for no reason
or did i miss something?
Click to expand...

Pay attention to which side you hit him on. If you hit him directly forward or anywhere on his left side then you can connect it. =) There are also situations where you're always going to hit his left side. I'm betting it won't work consistently against his RLC A, since he rotates counter-clockwise, which means if you hit early you won't hit the correct side.

Funny thing is, I always forget that I can do that combo until it's too late. Lolo remembers what moves he can punish with FC 3K, DNK, though. Maybe I can get a list from him.

i use them from time to time, but not on a regular basis
mostly because forget about them in heat of a battle + i dont find them that useful in my play, especially vs Belial, except maybe auto-gi to pwn rlc, yeah, i should do it moar =]
Click to expand...
What about the Kazuya UB (23, 13, 03)? I find that very useful. Especially if you knock the opponent down first. 100% tracking and good damage. =) Considering Belial steps the Kunimitsu UB, I understand why you don't use it against him.


=====
I noticed you wondered why i use 4b so often, well, i wonder why you wonder =]
I think that's the main tool to keep opponent pressured and one of the best yoshi's moves:
a) mid, -4
b) leaves opponent crouched
c) delivers massive guard damage

actually iMCF alone, forces your enemy to sit tight afterwards (not to mention step\backdash) since his options are limited by his position
also i often aim for soul crush (or at least make my opponent consider this possibility) by using 4b in aggregate with 66\33A+B, DFG B, 33B B+K (keep in mind that all those options major part of yoshi's damaging tools)

well that's how i see it =)
Click to expand...

For me, I'd rather maintain pressure with the fear of iMCF, 33B B+K, throws, and sometimes iFC 3K. 4B for me is..

1) linear.
2) slow.
3) good soul gauge damage.

It's what I thought. You work it into your game so you can GC (guard crush) your opponent. I did a lot of research and decided a long time ago that Yoshi's soul gauge damage moves are too slow and linear for me. It takes 10 of his good SG damage moves to break guard. I just feel that Yoshi doesn't need to GC to win, because he has so many great ways to force damage on the opponent. Even if the opponent knows all your options, I think Yoshi has a lot of options with trying to make the opponent stand still to block a good GC move. But, that's my philosophy. It's good to know Yoshi can be played so many ways. =)
 
I just feel like once you get an opponent who understands how to deal with mostly everything, then stances become worthless and way too much work for little reward
Click to expand...
It might be irrelevant, since mitsu has the best stance in the game, but I only was able to play like I do b/c everytime my stance got countered and it seemed nothing I can do I told myself to get over it and keep looking for a way to use it effectively. Yoshi stance is pretty decent, so I dont think its a good idea to give up on it just b/c your opponent counters that perfectly. w/o stance yoshi is very limited char. I played Masato (FR yoshi player) and he really used stance in a way I hardly could defend against it, so it is possible, just ... you have to use all options yoshi has and stance shifts.
 
Belial said:
It might be irrelevant, since mitsu has the best stance in the game, but I only was able to play like I do b/c everytime my stance got countered and it seemed nothing I can do I told myself to get over it and keep looking for a way to use it effectively. Yoshi stance is pretty decent, so I dont think its a good idea to give up on it just b/c your opponent counters that perfectly. w/o stance yoshi is very limited char. I played Masato (FR yoshi player) and he really used stance in a way I hardly could defend against it, so it is possible, just ... you have to use all options yoshi has and stance shifts.
Click to expand...

Mis-post. I intended to say that stance dancing is mostly useless. And I say this from experience. It's gimmicky and once your opponent adjusts, you just stop using it against him or her. IMO, Yoshi doesn't need stance dancing to win a match, because he has so many better, easier to access options.

I do believe stances are useful, but only DGF, SDGF, and FLE. FLE being the only stance you can really whore out all day against an experienced opponent. MED is mostly useless and REF is completely useless except when you want to stance dance from it into DGF and FLE.

You're saying Masato used stance dancing or just stances? You should post a vid.
 
Let's get this thread back on track and discuss the vids. For the purposes of continuing the Anti-Mitsu discussion, I've move the related posts to HERE. Appreciate all the discussion.
 
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