Angrel-San
[10] Knight
I want the next DLC character to be released ASAP.
I want the whole Season 1 to be available for EVO with plenty of practice time.
I want the whole Season 1 to be available for EVO with plenty of practice time.
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
- Start date
Crash X
[14] Master
It’s the fact that they have an effect on the hitboxes/hurtboxes in the game because you have the option to change the size of your CaS character. And considering the game has a bunch of jank with it’s hitboxes already, the size changes with CaS tend to amplify these issues with the hitboxes even further. This is also why CaS has always been banned from tournament play.
And no, it’s always been like this. It’s just that some people have decided to become more vocal about it as of during the development of SCVI and now.
sytus
[14] Master
No, it unfortunately continues to suck as much as it always has.
The heroes we need!
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I speak french--want to point me to the forums/threads where people are lambasting this? Because frankly, this argument is about as convincing on its face as "Yeah, I have a girlfriend--but you wouldn't know her, she goes to a different school." And I see no particular reason why players in the francophone world would be more or less annoyed by such a feature on average than those in English markets. And I'm not saying that you're lying: I think you probably do believe that a lot of players share your opinion that this is the major issue breaking the game and destroying the community/support for the game. But I'm also absolutely certain that you're wrong (both about how much it's damaging the game compared to just about any other arguably negative factor and how angry others are about it).
But honestly, the reason people are tired of hearing about it is not so much because it seems to be mostly an issue for a very small (but quite vocal) minority, but rather because it's been pointed out, ad nauseum (over and over and over again) why it's not going to change:
- They cannot, as a feasible, realistic matter, continue to keep player numbers up at levels necessary to maintain online play (without huge delays and connection match-ups that are even worse than they currently are) if they split the player ques into CaS and non-CaS channels. It just won't work as a numbers game. It's already a struggle to get good matches going in a timely fashion against players not on the other side of the world (and on their wifi), particularly on some platforms.
- The effects of CaS are actually pretty negligible at best, especially when one considers how rapidly the set features of the movesets have oscillated in the patching so far, even when we talk about the default character models.
- And if you really want to sell people on the idea that this is a real problem that needs addressing, you need to come armed with more concrete evidence. For all the times I've seen a pair of people waste time railing about this supposed glaring issue on this forum, I haven't seen one video that actually deconstructs when and how often it happens. In fact, I've never seen one example of someone providing even concrete frame data for one particular instance.
- That's not to say that I don't believe the occasional move is whiffable against one character of a certain size and not a character of another, with the same moveset. But a better case is needed than that which has been provided if you want this to be treated as something that is breaking the experience, particularly when talking about it on a hardcore forum where people tend to discuss mechanics in fine detail. If we're not convinced, you can certainly believe that the devs (who would have to implement the change of a new mode and find a way to somehow maintain populations at the same time) are not convinced. More is needed to make a case for this than us here hearing vaguely-worded angst about "CaS jank!!" a hundred times in a row.
- Related to the last point, you can bet this is not even in the top fifty list of features people want added or adjusted. There's just so much going on with this game right now that needs addressing, even if we are talking just about the issues with the online experience, where the netcode and existing matchmaking woes have a vastly larger and more negative impact on the play experience than CaS ever will. Which brings us at last to...
- Probably the single biggest reason why most people view the CaS variances as a non-issue: Anyone looking for a hardcore experience not marred by issues that would be unacceptable for high level play, is an absolute fool if they think they will ever find that in online play for this game. Or any fighter, for that matter, but especially this game.
- If you're looking to train under tournament-like conditions, then you wouldn't find that experience online even if CaS were never even a thing in SC. You pretty much have to find decent players in your area who are willing to sit down with you and play. That's just not what online play (even ranked) is for, in a competitive fighter.
- And the netcode (and the ability to be matched up against somebody whose connection/distance from you doesn't make things even worse) for this game in particular leaves a lot to be desired. So even if we grant that CaS occasionally impacts hitboxes, its still not even 0.1% responsible for outcomes in online play being different than they would be in live play. There's a reason why, of all eSports, fighters are the only games that almost never get online tournaments and are always played live.
- Maybe with another ten years of progress in internet infrastructure, this will finally change, but for now, you're not going to get anything like competitive play conditions, so why even complain about CaS when it, at most, adds a tiny little layer of variability on top of the mountain that is lag factors?
Last edited:
Over all, @Rusted Blade , you're right that there are numerous issues with SCVI that are more appropriate to attribute experience-breaking obstruction to. That said, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say with sincerity that CaS shenanigans was the experience-breaking jank that did in online play for me with SCIV.
Perhaps because the netcode sucked on most games back then and was precisely what I was expecting, CaS crap in all of what fights I did get very quickly killed what was an exciting new way to play with other opponents.
Obviously the expectations for netcode have increased since then, so the factors have to be weighed differently today, but I think that experience has just tainted my personal assessment of CaS in online play ever since.
Perhaps because the netcode sucked on most games back then and was precisely what I was expecting, CaS crap in all of what fights I did get very quickly killed what was an exciting new way to play with other opponents.
Obviously the expectations for netcode have increased since then, so the factors have to be weighed differently today, but I think that experience has just tainted my personal assessment of CaS in online play ever since.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
Being totally fair, though, the netcode of SoulCalibur IV was atrocious, and even fights with non-CaS was a pain. Didn't help already that that game was the most sluggish-paced game in the series, combined with bad netcode, it made reacting to certain things practically impossible, it didn't matter. Compare SoulCalibur V, by comparison, or even SoulCalibur VI, since it's the current discussion, and the netcode is so much better that it really doesn't begin to be a problem, at least not for that reason. It's not that it's a non-issue, it's just not big enough of an issue to affect the overall experience, is my personal feelings on the matter. The slight variance you might have to compensate for is no different than any other match-up data, to me. Every move already doesn't work on every character, CaS is just more characters to know whether or not certain moves will or will not work.
Crash X
[14] Master
SoulCalibur 6 wishlist and spam-support
...Natsu... The genderbend Naruto junk may sell, but it's still lazy marketing in my book... Agreed. ... ZWEI ... Anime pretty boy + Twilight ... marketing for pubescent ladies... ...and it worked! Talim would be too old for SC6. She'd be wat? 30? Gross. Not in any defense for Talim...
What’s going on here is Voldo’s RE K second hit is supposed to occur after the CaS Nightmare is knocked down by the first but here, it ends up whiffing entirely and it deprived me of using my descent to cause guard damage. And this happens TWICE!!!
So no, it’s quite an issue that many have expressed. Tournament players included.
Spartan_363
[09] Warrior
I guess the best solution for both sides is to have a Tournament Rules mode where you can only use the original characters like they do in tournaments and still have the ranked CaS allowed mode and such. I think that shouldn't be too difficult to implement and such.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Fair enough, and it's something to work with that you've even taken some time to document some of your own experiences there. But overall, in terms of establishing the impact that this has on play, I just haven't seen a whole lot that makes me feel that it has more than a very slight impact on outcomes overall, particularly when we compare it against other factors that impact online ranked that most people seem willing to live with. With all due respect to Aris, the level of his frustration with the way this feature is implemented seems disproportionate to the impact: when he argues so forcefully about how this makes ranked a bad place to drill fundamentals, because things don't play out as they would in a tournament, the only thing I can think is:I personally wouldn’t say that...
SoulCalibur 6 wishlist and spam-support
...Natsu... The genderbend Naruto junk may sell, but it's still lazy marketing in my book... Agreed. ... ZWEI ... Anime pretty boy + Twilight ... marketing for pubescent ladies... ...and it worked! Talim would be too old for SC6. She'd be wat? 30? Gross. Not in any defense for Talim...8wayrun.com
So no, it’s quite an issue that many have expressed. Tournament players included.What’s going on here is Voldo’s RE K second hit is supposed to occur after the CaS Nightmare is knocked down by the first but here, it ends up whiffing entirely and it deprived me of using my descent to cause guard damage. And this happens TWICE!!!
"Yeah, of course not! But it wouldn't be any different without CaS in ranked, because you'd still be fighting the horrendous netcode and matchmaking, so you're drilling with shit timing and delayed inputs, and all manner of related issues. Really nobody in their right minds would ever use ranked to train for tournament conditions: CaS or not, you're literally better off putzing around in training mode (or even playing against AI) than you are in going into ranked, if your main objective is to avoid training under non-tournament conditions and you don't have somebody to sit down and train against at the moment. Even restricting yourself to player matches with people you know you can get a good connection with is far superior to ranked in this fashion. Furthermore, ranked has always been the worst choice in this regard: the CaS in this game (with their variable heights) didn't create that situation--its existed since the day the franchise went online--and they barely make the situation worse, because playing in ranked is already such a bad idea if your only objective is to drill under consistent conditions for competitive/high level play."
I kind of like what the guy in the "8 way fun" account suggested though: the idea of forcing every character in ranked to be formatted to the size of the default character for that moveset. There may be technical reasons that would complicate that, but if they could find a way to make it work, it strikes me as a reasonable compromise solution. Sure, it'll really mess up the artistic objective of some (most?) CaS, but you can always take them into custom if you want to show them off as intended. Most crucially, it strikes me as something that would not discourage most players from playing ranked, because they could still use their customs, even if they weren't perfectly represented.
For me, honestly the reason I don't want them to create CaS/non-CaS modes is simple: I don't want to have to wait even longer than I presently have to wait for a match, only to get worse connections in general because there are so few players in that mode. Personally, I do like creating CaS quite a bit. But I honestly would not personally care if I couldn't take them into ranked: showing them off just doesn't matter to me that much (and even if it did, there are more efficient ways to do it). But as a pragmatic matter, I think we can all recognize that splitting the limited numbers of players into yet more varieties of ques is just not an option, with matchmaking where it is right now. So any solution that divides the player base further is no solution at all.
Last edited:
JohnMcKee
[14] Master
The old "hitbox" argument... yet nobody cries when a mimic character is allowed ^^
Starringrole
[09] Warrior
No one complains because a single mimic doesn't equate to as many inconsistencies as a bunch of varied heights from CAS. It would be one source of inconsistency with only one form of inconsistency. CAS on the other hand is one source with PLENTY of inconsistencies. That is unless they spam us with mimics.
That and without CAS hit boxes would probably be more consistent anyway since nothing would be built around the concept of so many variables being permitted and thus things could be more forced instead of working around it, or so I'd imagine.
Also not many people would be playing a mimic intensely would they?
Very serious uber important disclaimer: I am Dorothy so I'm not picking on anyone.
@Rusted Blade
Funz idea of fitting characters to their fighting style idea is actually fairly awesome for people wanting the consistency, however I don't think it will be possible as I believe some of the variations are even down to the characters gender and it may be too specific for them to work on something like that, or at least a very grating job.
Not sure though, I just assume its something they wouldn't tackle till a future entry at least in that fashion. Still very cool though.
Pretty sure in SCV there was a difference with some things regarding the genders.
Last edited:
sytus
[14] Master
Pools at the Vienna tournament are on shortly.
JohnMcKee
[14] Master
Even the original characters are full of inconsistencies (Sieg's notorious whiffs), even though the variable of one single mimic is the same as with the CAS: hitboxes don't match. Hell, even characters' own hitboxes don't match the 3D model.
Let's just agree that people should be able to choose following their tastes and not the excuse of hitboxes, 'cause I'm quite sure hitboxes issues coming from CAS isn't even 10% of the problem.
sytus
[14] Master
Report your hitbox issues to Bandai Namco, it's what I do when I've come across them like Yoshi's Flea K doesn't hit when you're right next to your opponent.
Starringrole
[09] Warrior
I_Love_Aogami
[12] Conqueror
I can't this killed me.I'll be settling it through artistic expression.
HackNslash
[07] Duelist
This is what I don’t get.
Why are people still crying over CAS like it’s a catastrophic event...
Just ask them to add a height restriction for each character if playing ranked, you could even do it based on the original characters attributes.
I get that some combos don’t work on some like they do others but this isn’t street fighter where you only have 5 moves.
There are a vast amount of options if you’re competent with your chosen character.
And let’s not forget the disadvantage goes both ways.
Sometime I feel the SC criticism comes from laziness.
There’s loads of energy in finding problems but not solutions.
The amount of “see this is why CAS should be banned” combo videos
Instead of “if you pick a dumb CAS model, this is how you gonna get your ass beat” combo videos.
SC is a fighting proudly built on its options and while it can be frustrating, CAS is NOT the games biggest problem by faaaaar!
Let’s be real here, we all know verticals are still tracking, RE works in favour of some and not others and Azwel is most likely going to win EVO.
CaS?!!!... DRAKEEEE?!!!!
RagingGhost
[10] Knight
At least there's no Yoda-sized playable characters around. Sucks that he pretty much killed the odds of seeing a Dwarf Slayer from Warhammer Fantasy (or failing that, someone with dwarfism) in the game.
Last edited:
Crash X
[14] Master
Even then Yoda was still a gutter trash character in 4. To the point he was literally the worst character in the entire game (worse than Rock and Mina).
Well yeah, I mean it’s not as bad as something as the game’s netcode (especially on PS4 where it runs like a potato), input buffering, lack of hitbox consistency, the matchmaking, and the issues with the balance patches towards certain characters. It should at the very least be looked at later down the line.